Torn Armor is on Kickstarter!

[Stuntddude]

Why not develop the game *then* sell it?

To make a really good game in any reasonable amount of time, you need to be able to work on it full time, not just as a hobby. It's a huge leap to compare people modding in their spare time to people making a full game from scratch.

If you're working full time on a game, especially if you're in a team of several people, you need money. Last time I checked, money is needed to do things like buy food and keep a house. You can't expect game developers to go broke for a few years if they want to make a game, that's simply unreasonable.

And how do you think triple-A game studios make games? A team of devs from within their company come to them with an idea or a proposition. If they think the idea is good, they will approve it and give the devs funding to make their game. The initial funding is given, the game is made, and then it is sold, and more money is acquired, most of which goes back to the company that "sponsored" the devs, so that they can make a profit from the deal and have funding to give to future projects.

[Freshbite]

I just want to point this discussion in the proper direction by adding that the game in mention is actually a board game and not something you'd develop on a computer (cutting out shapes for plastic figurines excluded).

[Assaultman67]

No one forces you to pay them any money.
The simple fact is that people need money to get by. Some people like to earn their money by developing games, or other entertainment related systems (Oculus Rift). For completely new developments you need a lot of time, sometimes more than a full time job allows you. This is where stuff like Kickstarter can help. People can build existences and start careers without having to take massive debts first, by getting a loan from a bank. This way they are forced to be successful, because they would not be able to pay the interest rates.
Kickstarter can literally kickstart creative ideas by potentially reducing the risk for these people.
It's up to the backers to evaluate these concepts and decide what to support. I would never pay someone money who does not have a very clear concept of what he is going to do that can be realised.

I completely agree that this thread is extremely pushy and not really good advertisement for the game, but what you just said about Kickstarter is complete and utter bullshit.

Isn't this exactly the problem?

They're taking money from people with the promise of establishing a new product and those people are expecting a finished product. However, more often than not, there are very few things actually preventing them from just walking off with the money when they get tired of the project.

That's basically theft in my book.

Why not develop the game *then* sell it?

To make a really good game in any reasonable amount of time, you need to be able to work on it full time, not just as a hobby. It's a huge leap to compare people modding in their spare time to people making a full game from scratch.

Bull. Shit.

Counterstrike was an unfunded game. Garry's mod was unfunded. Team Fortress was unfunded. Minecraft was unfunded.

That's just HL2 games.

(note that all of these used fairly small teams, therefore, did not require as much resources)

You need passion. Not money.

Also, you can't compare yourself to a triple A studio sizes. That's incredibly inaccurate. To have that kind of growth and be able to maintain an organizational structure like that is simply impossible.

I just want to point this discussion in the proper direction by adding that the game in mention is actually a board game and not something you'd develop on a computer (cutting out shapes for plastic figurines excluded).

Doesn't that make it easier since it can easily be prototyped?

Prototype that shit. talk to these guys to pitch your idea.

If the game is bland and unplayable, they wont buy it. Tough break.

Going from no product to full scale in-house production is a stupendously huge step anyways. You would need about a quarter mil just to get started with all the different tooling you would need. Plastic molding doesn't get cheap until you have hundreds of thousands of units made (and especially sold)

[Freshbite]

Indeed. If a cleverly put together advertisement campaign would yield enough interest, a scam might just be successful...

* looks at tornworld_jack *

[Stuntddude]

Counterstrike was an unfunded game. Garry's mod was unfunded. Team Fortress was unfunded. Minecraft was unfunded.

That's just HL2 games.

I'm not familiar with the development of the first three, but I'd like to point out that Minecraft was funded by pre-orders (a method that is subject to most of the same complaints you've voiced about kickstarters) for the vast majority of its time in development, and like many "unfunded" games, began as a side project by someone already working a regular job doing something else, and was only picked up full time when it started to look profitable. I'll look into CS and the other ones you listed when I have more time.

Also, what do you mean by "that's just HL2 games"?

[Assaultman67]

... I'm not familiar with the development of the first three, but I'd like to point out that Minecraft was funded by pre-orders (a method that is subject to most of the same complaints you've voiced about kickstarters) for the vast majority of its time in development, and like many "unfunded" games, began as a side project by someone already working a regular job doing something else, and was only picked up full time when it started to look profitable. I'll look into CS and the other ones you listed when I have more time.

Minecraft had playable alphas for preorders demonstrating progress. (So does Overgrowth, wolfire's game, the site you're pandering on.)

It's alot easier to buy into an alpha and have full access to the game afterwards than to buy into an idea and if by the off chance it actually succeeds having to buy the product.

In the worst case scenario of minecraft, people at least got the alpha of the game.

If I donate to this guy's kickstarter, Will I get a print out version of your game or something?

Frankly, that is the way to go if youre and indie developer if you ask me. If you can get people interested in the product via alphas of the game, you can develop interest in it. Especially if you're relying on viral marketing to do the grunt work for you in the marketing department.

I'd have alot more respect in this guy if he was able to provide and alpha of some sort. Maybe a PDF board you can print out?

Also, what do you mean by "that's just HL2 games"?

I mean, those are all games that started off as mods

Edit: I guess TF started off as a quake mod and CS as a HL mod.

Killing floor is another mod that was developed and then later sold as a game utilizing the UT2k4 engine.

Red Orchestra is another mod that was developed and then later sold as a game utilizing the UT2k4 engine.

[Stuntddude]

the site you're pandering on,

I'm going to try my best to ignore your blatant hostility for the purposes of the discussion, but it is duly noted.

It's alot easier to buy into an alpha and have full access to the game afterwards than to buy into an idea and if by the off chance it actually succeeds having to buy the product.

That's pretty much a worst case scenario. Almost every kickstarter-type game project I've seen has included a copy of the game for the people who contribute. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're mainly arguing the amount of progress that devs should show for a game before asking for funding, since as far as I can tell, that's the only significant difference between kickstarter projects and pre-orders.

I mean, those are all games that started off as mods

Minecraft was never a mod or going to be one.