Wolfire Games Forums

Grayswandir wrote:Wouldn't that depend on where you hit them with the thumbtacks?

Ultimatum479 wrote:in people's necks

Silb, you're making the same logical fallacy as all the others: you're assuming that everyone's natural tendency is to follow a strict moral code, and thus you're saying that immorality and amorality contradict one's "natural feelings". That's not true for everyone.

I believe in instincts. Not moral code or morality in any kind. Moral is just a way to describe a specific section of adaption. Take the first post, as an example. David say altruism is a form of adaption (which I highly agree with). Feelings are also instincts. Sometimes we let the instincts that are excessive today take overhand, though. Emoism and self-sacrifical behaviour are good examples of that. And two oposites despite resulting in the same. =P

Instincts are what makes us who we are.

Edit: Just to clarify; To me, todays excessive instincts makes cliques, it makes religions, and it makes people needlessly dramatic about things. Etc. Blah blah. I could go on forever about this. Especially the two last points. Religions and dramaqueens.

I don't think I said that about everyone, at least I didn't mean to. I only said some people who do have some moral feelings but deny them wind up having psychological issues they don't understand when they start acting immoraly (sorry by the way, by nevrose I meant neurosis, but spelled it in french for some reason).

If you don't feel angry/bitter/in need of validation/etc then it's all good.

Silb wrote:a good chunk of modern nevrose cases are precisely people who contradict their own feelings because of some warped abstract reasoning--instead of actually listening to themselves--, ltypically people going "I act only for myself and de not believe in God, therefore I don't care about morals and I can keep doing this particular immoral action with no problem", and then ending up at the psychoanalyst's).

OH NONONO!!
I never say someone should act immoral!! How should I put it.........I believe that everyone has the abilities to distinguish good from bad to a good extend and there is no one that will made up his mind to made people around him to suffer. For example, if you are into programming, and you get to play around with computer everyday, eventually you can end up develping something that benefitting population around you! However, if I force the same person to work in field and pave the road, he will not be able to do a good job because he is not really interested in the subject and he cannot enjoy what he is doing. I think that there are a lot of crazy things happened in the society now, is that people are force to adapt certain mindset to achieve "some standards" therefore, they end up forcing themselve to do what they don't want to do, and eventually they end up being not happy themselve. A group of such people then will have the abilities to damage the society.

I think this is what I mean for do things that will made you feel comfortable or a sense of achievement!!

By the way, it is interesting that you refer to God in your post, may I ask what is your perceptions on god and religions? Well...if you don't feel comfortable answering it, then it is ok!!

Silb wrote:I don't think I said that about everyone, at least I didn't mean to.

Very well.

(Emphasis added) SITA wrote:I believe that everyone has the abilities to distinguish good from bad to a good extend and there is no one that will made up his mind to made people around him to suffer.

You, however, did. I disagree.

Perhaps everyone _can_ distinguish "good" from "bad", but everyone's ideas of what's "good" and what's "bad" differ completely. And your latter point is quite obviously wrong or there would be no crime in the world today.

Ultimatum479 wrote:Perhaps everyone _can_ distinguish "good" from "bad", but everyone's ideas of what's "good" and what's "bad" differ completely. And your latter point is quite obviously wrong or there would be no crime in the world today.

I agree! Looking the details, people can have completely different views about "good" and "bad", but on a general sense, not the mindset that our society given us, I think everyone's view on good and bad is somehow universal. By noboday made up his mind to made people suffer point, I am trying to say that it is hard to find a child who will say that he/she wants to become a greatest rapist when they grow up, human natures are good!! I think people commit "crimes" because there is a certain unbalanceness existed within him. A person's actions is a reflection of his spirit, so I think we need to know that what he has gone through, then the action will make sense.

And the concept of "crime", at least for me, is very very interesting. I admit that there are some actions that is 100% intolerable, like taking away freedom, or rights as a human. However, some laws are made for weird reason. I want to share a story with you guys.

My friend once told me that present society prohibited a person to be happy. Many times, people need an excuse to make such actions be accepted by the society. For example, when people want to buy a cup of coffee and relax, they will say, "I work(or study) too hard, now I need to get a cup of coffee" or you may hear people say, "I spend all my energy on the project, and I deserve to take a vacation". It seems like people are not allow to do things just for the pleasure and there is always a need to justify the pursuit of happiness. Now extend the mindset to the laws that prevent people using marijuana, my friend say that the reason it is illegal to use is because that such an action is consider as selfish and cowardly, you are having pleasure all by yourself and relief yourself from the burdens.

I am not sure if it is true, and I still need to think about it, but just to share with you guys because I feel like it is a funny opinion about the society.

Lol @ this.

Creating bad guy images on an internet forum is pretty pathetic.

Renegade_Turner wrote:Creating bad guy images on an internet forum is pretty pathetic.

As I mentioned, I'm not trying to be a "bad guy". I'm not immoral. I'm amoral. I don't fit into the group I just mentioned to SITA; the last time I committed a real crime (misdemeanors like driving without a seatbelt don't count) was a good two months ago, and I didn't steal much anyway.

The reason for prohibiting marijuana is that the government thinks it should look out for the health even of those who don't wish to look out for their own health. Otherwise, stopping someone from committing suicide would be illegal. It really should be, as it's an invasion of one's privacy. Convincing them is fine, but it should not be legal to physically stop someone from jumping off a bridge or shooting him-/her- self in the head.

LOLLLLLLLLLLL he's still doing it.

I've never committed a crime. Not once.

Gosh I'm a loser. I should break the law more because it's cool.

You are NOT getting this. Immoral people break the law because it's "cool". I'm amoral; I only do whatever suits me, and usually what suits me is not getting arrested. Thus, I don't usually do anything illegal. The most I'll usually do is grab a bit from someone's wallet in school if I'm in dire need of money that day, and I'll usually slip most of it back in when I have cash later so that they won't notice.

If I'm not defining the difference well enough for you -- despite, apparently, everyone else understanding it -- look up "amoral" and "immoral" and contrast the two.

Wait...what do amoral and immoral mean again?

Renegade_Turner wrote:LOLLLLLLLLLLL

Lots Of Laughs Laughs Laughs Laughs Laughs Laughs Laughs Laughs Laughs Laughs Laughs?

SITA wrote:By noboday made up his mind to made people suffer point, I am trying to say that it is hard to find a child who will say that he/she wants to become a greatest rapist when they grow up, human natures are good!! I think people commit "crimes" because there is a certain unbalanceness existed within him. A person's actions is a reflection of his spirit, so I think we need to know that what he has gone through, then the action will make sense.

So you believe that all people are naturally "good" and that their immorality or amorality would only be a product of their environment's effects on them? Didn't you yourself say that you agreed morality was a product of evolution? In that case, you're saying it's genetic, which means that, since we all have genetic mutations which make us different from each other, not every human would be born with a moral code. The only way you can make an internally consistent claim that morality is innate in all humans is if you consider it to be something more than genetic, which would get into the topic of religion...and as I'm a devout atheist, you'll have to be prepared for a much more heated discussion if you go that route.

Edit: Meh. Ignore that. Mixed you up with Nuky. You made no such claim, so far as I see.

Damnit, stop giving me a bad name you dick.

Ultimatum479 wrote:

Renegade_Turner wrote:LOLLLLLLLLLLL

Lots Of Laughs Laughs Laughs Laughs Laughs Laughs Laughs Laughs Laughs Laughs Laughs?

Why are you going back to my former posts?

Seriously, could you explain amoral and immoral to me one more time? I promise this time I'll get it.

Social behavior is not an on/off switch. Genetic mutations don't work like in X-men or Heroes, you can't have a mutation that singles out a specific trait and changes it just like that. If you were really a sociopath like you seem to want everyone to believe, then you wouldn't be going around trying to get everyone to believe it. For some reason you want to persuade everyone that you are somehow above all human society, and don't care what anyone thinks of you. You can't 'use' people if you keep bragging about how much of a 'user' you are. The fact that you argue your case so vehemently proves that you are wrong.