Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

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Madd the Sane
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Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by Madd the Sane » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:19 pm

Girls and Software on the Linux Journal.

I feel like the article hit many points as to why many girls/women don't have an interest in programming nowadays.

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by Endoperez » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:24 am

I know at least half a dozen female programmers, but yeah.

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by Korban3 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:32 am

My girlfriend is going to school for game design.

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by APsychonaut » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:22 am

nice to see the patriarchy doing what it does best. unfortunately, individual incidents aside, it's true that programming is suffering from the same inherent chauvinism as any other field with more depth than the makeup on [insert female pop culture icon here]'s face.
regrettably it'll probably stay that way, too, until this ego-maniacal zeitgeist gets changed into something...better.
cheers for the article, man.

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by Endoperez » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:43 am

APsychonaut, throwing out all those loaded words is a bad idea, especially when you're using them about tech-heavy fields. I got the feeling that somehow just being into the game dev stuff makes me an ego-maniacal chauvinist.

You probably didn't mean that, but that's the gut reaction I got. :?

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by APsychonaut » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:12 am

i apologize if it came off like that, it wasn't my intention.
i know who i'm looking at when i say this, and i can tell you that most citizens of the internet tend to be quite forward thinkers, who recognize the sociological problems we have left over from early western colonial conservatism. the same ones that make mister big-bucks owns-a-tech-company think it's okay to grabfanny the waitress down at their club, or slash everyone's wages to make a few extra bucks.
everyone's got an ego, i just don't like the fellers who've let theirs get out of control.

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by AmorphousGamer » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:17 am

Alright, I'll bite.
Whereabouts do you live, if I might ask? I can fairly comfortably say that there's no such thing as a "Patriarchy" in most countries nowadays. Especially not in America. I'm not going to pretend to know a lot about the state of other countries, because I don't, but I would assume at least most of Europe would be in a similar state to America.

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by APsychonaut » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:10 am

i live somewhere equally as 'developed' as the US, which i'll thank you not to set as a paragon. the united states still commits as many atrocities as any other nation, and national ego is as dangerous as any else.

but to list a few examples of women playing a weaker role in society there;
qualified women STILL receive less wages than their peers
women STILL cannot formally serve in front line units, or many other military positions
insert a giant finger point at (nearly) the ENTIRE fashion/beauty industry, and the intentional butchering of self esteem.
insert a giant finger point at a good chunk of the media industry, and how women (extras in particular) are portrayed.

i'm happy to keep going if you want, but don't get me wrong here.
while it started to be visible and most prevalent in the west, it was long before the US. it began with colonialism, and has simply grown into what it is today - a world wide issue that spans the entire globe. no one individual is to blame, and honestly it probably came to be purely through the subconcious, that's how most of us develop after all. and now it's just a thing.

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by AmorphousGamer » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:37 am

APsychonaut wrote:i live somewhere equally as 'developed' as the US, which i'll thank you not to set as a paragon. the united states still commits as many atrocities as any other nation, and national ego is as dangerous as any else.
Your words are barbed, and you make many assumptions.
APsychonaut wrote:but to list a few examples of women playing a weaker role in society there;
qualified women STILL receive less wages than their peers
Source please.
APsychonaut wrote:women STILL cannot formally serve in front line units, or many other military positions
Source please.
APsychonaut wrote:insert a giant finger point at (nearly) the ENTIRE fashion/beauty industry, and the intentional butchering of self esteem.
insert a giant finger point at a good chunk of the media industry, and how women (extras in particular) are portrayed.
*whines about how women are portrayed, ignores the typical buff, manly guy / the extremely cute guy who are the only males you will ever see in media
(aside from the extremely nerdy guy, who is always laughed at, whereas the female equivalent is seen as the cutest thing to ever walk the earth)

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by Korban3 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:26 pm

Actually, the Marine Corps recently allowed a number of female Marines into infantry training who succeeded, so we're well on the way towards that. They didn't get the actual MOS, but they proved a point. There's work being done to fix some of the problems, but it's a slow process.

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by APsychonaut » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:45 pm

AmorphousGamer wrote: Your words are barbed, and you make many assumptions.
barbed towards a government that has a sizeable track record of human rights violations? hell yes.
and what am i assuming? that you seem to think your country is great? i'm not sure what other conclusions to draw.
AmorphousGamer wrote:
APsychonaut wrote:wages
Source please.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male-fema ... ted_States
before you 'it's a wiki me', it's sourced.
AmorphousGamer wrote:
APsychonaut wrote:military
Source please.
http://www.army.mil/women/today.html first point. i understand it takes time for women to begin to numerically balance the ratios, but considering my point was WHAT they can serve as...
AmorphousGamer wrote:
APsychonaut wrote:media
*whines about how women are portrayed, ignores the typical buff, manly guy / the extremely cute guy who are the only males you will ever see in media
yes, shallow stories resort to tropes and cliches for character design, giving them the depth of paddle pool. in said films, who would these roles be assigned to in such a film? a successful drug dealer, a successful arms dealer, the one who needs saving, a badass sergeant, an extremely senior and skilled scientist, the doctor, the successful executive financing the adventure, the one waiting at home to lovingly embrace the hero, a professional intelligence agent, the one who's just lucky with lust.
and again, i should point out that i'm not attacking anyone in particular. i'm not saying YOU'RE a chauvinist, either consciously or subconsciously. real gamers (you know what i mean by that) and people who spend a lot of time online (on places other than social media exclusively) are often exempt from this pigeon hole, and hell- a lot of people are beginning to get annoyed with/attack the sociobullshit. but the people with money still are in control of stuff, unfortunately, and as such they hold the sway on the industries. things are changing, but people gotta keep standing up, or we're gonna be stuck in our crawl.

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by AmorphousGamer » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:22 pm

APsychonaut wrote:barbed towards a government that has a sizeable track record of human rights violations? hell yes.
and what am i assuming? that you seem to think your country is great? i'm not sure what other conclusions to draw.
Don't draw any conclusions, as I haven't said shit about my country or any opinions of it. I think humans in general are flawed and lean towards stupidity and gullibility. I don't think any country in the world is "great," as they are all filled with humans.
APsychonaut wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male-fema ... ted_States
before you 'it's a wiki me', it's sourced.
It's still an encyclopedia article, meaning it's got as much information crammed into it as it possibly can. I don't have the time to read it in its entirety as I would like.
APsychonaut wrote:yes, shallow stories resort to tropes and cliches for character design, giving them the depth of paddle pool. in said films, who would these roles be assigned to in such a film? a successful drug dealer, a successful arms dealer, the one who needs saving, a badass sergeant, an extremely senior and skilled scientist, the doctor, the successful executive financing the adventure, the one waiting at home to lovingly embrace the hero, a professional intelligence agent, the one who's just lucky with lust.
I'm sorry, but I honestly don't understand what you're attempting to say here.

Anyways, maybe there are pay gaps between sexes. That's fucked up. What are you going to do about it? If you can show me a solution I'd love to be a part of it.
But that's not the point. My point here is you said there is a "patriarchy." Which, as you've said you live in a country "as developed" as America, I will say doesn't exist. And some women not getting as much money as some men doesn't constitute patriarchy. As TJ Kirk once said, "If we're the oppressors, we fucking suck at it."

EDIT: Sorry, I missed a point. You also mentioned positions being open to women in the U.S. Army.
First off, I noticed this particular statement. "78 percent of the positions in the Army are open to women."
I'd like to know what positions this 78% does not include before I argue as to this being a fair call. The page is extremely vague and really doesn't give any information aside from those vague statements.

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by Endoperez » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:38 pm

AmorphousGamer wrote:Alright, I'll bite.
Whereabouts do you live, if I might ask? I can fairly comfortably say that there's no such thing as a "Patriarchy" in most countries nowadays.
What's your definition of "patriarchy"? The one used in feminism isn't a "conspiracy of males", but something like "a social construct where roles of political leadership, moral authority, and control of property are more often occupied by males".


Incidentally, this sort of reply is what I feared/expected when I pointed out your use of big words, APsychonaut. In this forum, the use of social science terminology stands out and comes off as alien, and that tends to 1) provoke people (I for one feel threatened by someone who seems to be posturing about their intellectual superiority), and 2) provoke confusion about your exact meaning, since the terminology is unfamiliar. 3) if your normal dialogue is barbed, people tend to assume the reason is in the other participating in that exact discussion.

The end result is that people feel like you're attacking someone, possibly them, and become defensive. Then it becomes a "me" vs "them" discussion. I've noticed this same trend in multiple separate discussions about feminism, and it's one of the reasons "angry feminist" stereotype is still alive. I can only assume that in feminist circles (I only hang around in one specific group) this sort of dialogue is common and socially accepted, and of course perfectly understood. For those unfamiliar with the subject, that same dialogue gives a negative impression.

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by Endoperez » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:52 pm

AmorphousGamer wrote:I'm sorry, but I honestly don't understand what you're attempting to say here.
Heh, seems like my previous post hit the mark here.

I'd say APsychonaut is talking about concepts using terminology that isn't clear to you, using a tone of voice that makes you think you're being threatened. The barbs aren't directed at you, specifically.
Anyways, maybe there are pay gaps between sexes. That's fucked up. What are you going to do about it? If you can show me a solution I'd love to be a part of it.
But that's not the point. My point here is you said there is a "patriarchy."
That actually is a sign of a system of patriarchy. It doesn't mean conscious obstruction, it's a social construct or a social situation where men tend to get into more powerful positions for various reasons.

The solution actually does exist. First we'd have to identify the reason. Feminism defines one of them more or less like this:

Stereotypes affect how people think (girls are pretty, girls are airheaded, blondes are stupid, boys do sports, boys are rude, gamers are socially inept etc. ad infinitum). How we think affects how we act. How we act has an effect on the real world. Every step is a subtle one, so stereotypes are still very far from reality, but the effect is still noticeable. By accepting and celebrating more varied stereotypes, our way of thinking would become more accepting, which will, in time, bring the world closer to true equality.

This is why feminists would like to see more female characters as action heroes. It's also why feminists would like to see more male characters who break the usual stereotypes. It doesn't mean that stereotypes should be replaced, that would just replace the current problems with different ones. More stereotypes, more acceptance.

So one way to make this work is to speak out when you see a game with a damsel in distress character (because there are so many of those), and to ask for a female protagonist (because there are so few of those). And if any game ever breaks the mold and does something interesting (Overgrowth is a nice one), then celebrate it.

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Re: Article: Why we don't have more girls in technology

Post by APsychonaut » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:00 pm

(my responses tend to get rambly and incoherent when my body gets full of CBD, so i apologise for that.

i'll give you a proper response once i've slept and sobered up. also, it's nice exercising the ol' neurons. danke <3)

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