IGD: Game Difficulty

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Endoperez
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Re: IGD: Oh Dear god...

Post by Endoperez » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:25 am

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:In a few years, due to how RPG genre standards evolve, his games might be the norm
While that is a theoretical possibility, my point was that it's an unlikely possibility no one could plan for, and right now and for the majority of his career, Jeff's RPGs have been niche products. Niche products aimed at experienced, older gamers at that. And he's found out that he shouldn't make his games difficult on the default setting.

I pointed that out as a counter-argument to your claim that Jeff was making games to appeal to the most people. That, in turn, was your argument against my claim that Jeff has lots of experience and information about what gamers like, and that his opinion was valid across the gamer population.

I'd now like to refine my original argument: Jeff has found out that many of the hardcore RPG gamers of the 90s and 00s prefer games that aren't too hard.

Whether or not genres evolve is irrelevant to my argument, which was about gamers, not games. The exception would be if genres evolved in a way that countered my premise, such as Dark Souls, roguelikes and other extremely difficult games became the norm among older players.
But I'm a fucking Phoenix...
Yes. Sure you are. That's fantastic.
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:wink: /jk
Like I said: Even casuals like a sense of difficulty, even if it's built to make them THINK they'll lose, but actually they'll win.
True. This isn't incompatible with something like "on default difficulty, most of the time, a player shouldn't lose unless he makes a gross mistake". That is against the roguelike mindset, but might work even in some roguelike-inspired games.

Casual players get the rush of feeling like a badass by crushing everything.

Hardcores get this by overcoming a difficult obstacle.

While Hardcore gamers (Really hardcore) will try and argue the point of "A game is only as hardest as it's easiest difficulty setting" people who like a challenge will still just play on the harder difficulty setting.

The deep insensitive hardcore gamer in me wants me to say "Well, they aren't actually accomplishing anything so they shouldn't feel good!"

But that would be wrong, they feel like they're accomplishing something, but they might not be.

Hardcore gamers are accomplishing something, and feel good as a result.
If someone is playing a game to feel like they accomplish something, and they get that feeling, didn't they just accomplish the very thing they set out to do?

And the thing that they didn't accomplish, the "100% completion", was never something they even cared about, so the fact that they didn't achieve that doesn't really even register for them.

Some people approach games with a different goal in mind. I don't think there's anything wrong with a developer looking at his or her game, and considering if his game could support more than one the goals people set in for games.

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Phoenixwarrior141
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Re: IGD: Oh Dear god...

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:25 pm

Grrrrrrrrrrrr....
If someone is playing a game to feel like they accomplish something, and they get that feeling, didn't they just accomplish the very thing they set out to do?

And the thing that they didn't accomplish, the "100% completion", was never something they even cared about, so the fact that they didn't achieve that doesn't really even register for them.

Some people approach games with a different goal in mind. I don't think there's anything wrong with a developer looking at his or her game, and considering if his game could support more than one the goals people set in for games.
I wanted to respond to this in particular.

Of course, this is all true, the game is only what a player makes of it.

Hardcore gamers will try and 100% a game, and anyone who thinks it's too hard either "This game might not be for you" (The majority) or "Filty casul" (The insensitive dicks).

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Re: IGD: Oh Dear god...

Post by Endoperez » Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:33 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:I wanted to respond to this in particular.

Of course, this is all true, the game is only what a player makes of it.

Hardcore gamers will try and 100% a game, and anyone who thinks it's too hard either "This game might not be for you" (The majority) or "Filty casul" (The insensitive dicks).
Well, this whole argument arose from people requesting that a game that's too hard for them would be made easier.

I interpreted your response so that the attitude, the mere act of asking for that, was wrong. That the asker might make the developer change his vision of the game (for the worse), and that this sort of thing was somehow wrong.

You probably think that attitude is "this game might not be for you", but if these peopl aren't allowed to ask for games, there won't be any games that are for them.
Everything would be "not for you!"

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Re: IGD: Game Difficulty

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:51 pm

True.


Well, this whole argument arose from people requesting that a game that's too hard for them would be made easier.

I interpreted your response so that the attitude, the mere act of asking for that, was wrong.
There are only 2 things I see wrong with this:

1: Some games are hard and they will be hard, trying to make a Hardcore game, casual is perfectly okay, but the simple fact is that the game (Dark Souls for example) shouldn't conform to an audience that it didn't want to attract.

2: Is it okay to ask? Sure, I too wish FTL showed some mercy every now and again, the same goes for Dark Souls. Is the idea behind it okay? (This is hard to explain, but simply put: Trying to conform to them, even though whatever they want to conform [i.e. Difficulty] is the nature of the game), in my opinion, no.

If you don't like difficult games, fine. Don't play missionary and try and make the developers change it, that don't help anything.

You want to request games? Fine, request away, don't try and piss off the community if you don't get your way.

I don't go on easy game's forums to constantly Hardcore Bible Thump ("DA POWAH OF DAK SOLS COMPELLS YAH") the developers until I'm banned or they change it.

My point is: Have fun with YOUR games, don't try and convert other games to your standards.

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Re: IGD: Game Difficulty

Post by EPR89 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:17 pm

But it is absolutely possible to make some games easier without changing the experience for "hardcore" players in the slightest.

Has it ever occurred to you that people might want to play a game because it is good? Maybe they like the story, the way the genre is realised, or the scenario. If the only thing barring them access to that game is its difficulty and this could be circumvented by introducing an easier difficulty setting, why not consider it?

I really don't understand why this is such a huge issue for you.

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Re: IGD: Game Difficulty

Post by Endoperez » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:35 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:My point is: Have fun with YOUR games, don't try and convert other games to your standards.
This attitude says that requesting is wrong.

This attitude claims that the COMMUNITY owns the game, instead of the developers.

This attitude claims that people who disagree with the majority opinion of a specific group, should be kicked off and silenced. You claim that it's wrong to ask things because asking is same as spamming enough to get banned. It's not. Spanning enough to get banned is wrong, and the request itself didn't have anything to do with the ban.


Your right hand is holding a sign that says "Ask away, it's totally fine!" but your left hand is holding a sign that says "Don't you dare ask anyone to change anything I like! That's wrong!". Many things you say are sensible, but then somehow the conclusions you draw from those things end up very different from my own.


In fact, the MineCraft EULA thing is a perfect example of a part of the community, or even OUTSIDERS to the main community, requesting a change and the developers conforming. Mojang changed the EULA, because they got numerous requests from parents whose kids had spent / wanted to spend hundreds to thousands of euros on a game that had cost 25 $. Some of the community doesn't like these changes. Some of the servers will lose their old means of monetization and might go bankrupt. However, when a kid plays a game he has bought, and sees people paying money to get unbanned from the servers... or thinks it's all right to pay 500$ to get free super-gear, cheats, fly mode and more, well, something should be done.

And that something will change the game, and destroy some servers. It's sad.

And yet, conforming to the request is the more moral option, the less evil option. The better option. The right thing to do.

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