IGD: PARENTS VS. STEAM.

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Phoenixwarrior141
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Re: IGD: PARENTS VS. STEAM.

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:28 pm

Endoperez wrote: a save point that kills you, ugh.
Wow... Just wow.

Any ways:
Endoperez wrote:
Glabbit wrote:
Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:I have to say this is demonstrably false, some games are meant to be hard for the feeling of accomplishment when you do beat them,
'Demonstrably false'? Using fancy words does not make your statements truthful.
He's true though, that's one of the selling points of roguelikes. With permadeath. You know, the genre of games that are more punishing than Dark Souls series has ever tried to be. :D

That said, roguelikes have always been a niche market, and the difficulty is one of the reasons for that. Dungeoncrawler games like Diablo usually make the game much easier and less punishing, which makes the game as a whole a more enjoyable experience.

So yes, games like that exist - but that doesn't mean it's good game design. I loathe IWBTG, I don't see what draws some people into it... I could understand it if it was just a platforming challenge, but the meta-gamey puzzles like a save point that kills you, ugh.
I think that it being a niche market is good, FTL kept it's original design of being a hard roguelike but was more forgiving then one, appealing to both audiences at once.

Only barely, but appealing nonetheless.

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Endoperez
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Re: IGD: PARENTS VS. STEAM.

Post by Endoperez » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:24 am

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:I think that it being a niche market is good
Being the only player at a niche market is good.

Carving out your own niche, with a dedicated userbase, is very good.

Several people pushing games into the same niche market is bad for the game devs. Might be good for the players, until the devs go belly-up.

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Re: IGD: PARENTS VS. STEAM.

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:48 pm

Update: If you've played Hotline Miami to death like I have, you're pissed:

http://steamcommunity.com/app/219150/di ... 714632817/

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EPR89
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Re: IGD: PARENTS VS. STEAM.

Post by EPR89 » Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:23 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:Update: If you've played Hotline Miami to death like I have, you're pissed:

http://steamcommunity.com/app/219150/di ... 714632817/
Same point: How does having the option to turn off the gore change anything for people who don't want to use it?

It's also not a fair comparison. Hotline Miami is clearly marketed towards adults and towards people who like this sort of presentation. Faster Than Light is marketed entirely differently and the point brought up in your first post is absolutely valid, in contrast to this one.

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Re: IGD: PARENTS VS. STEAM.

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:31 pm

Like someone in that post, the point is to be gory, it's kind of how the game conveys it's message.

A post on a gaming news site (That I can't find for the life of me) stated that the message requires the gore that it does, else the message/ question cannot be answered (How tolerant of violence are we? Do you like hurting people?).

Also, more idiocy: http://steamcommunity.com/app/219150/di ... 752891099/

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Re: IGD: PARENTS VS. STEAM.

Post by Grayswandir » Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:06 am

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:Update: If you've played Hotline Miami to death like I have, you're pissed:

http://steamcommunity.com/app/219150/di ... 714632817/
Oh no! Someone asked for the blood the be turned off! What do we do?!

PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC

But the developer didn't actually add in a setting for that even though it was requested...
It doesn't matter!

PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC

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Re: IGD: PARENTS VS. STEAM.

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:02 am

Grayswandir wrote:
Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:Update: If you've played Hotline Miami to death like I have, you're pissed:

http://steamcommunity.com/app/219150/di ... 714632817/
Oh no! Someone asked for the blood the be turned off! What do we do?!

PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC

But the developer didn't actually add in a setting for that even though it was requested...
It doesn't matter!

PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
PANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANICPANIC
That is exactly what we do.

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Endoperez
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Re: IGD: PARENTS VS. STEAM.

Post by Endoperez » Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:44 pm

"Oh no Adrian, the Red are polluting the Steam forum! What do we dooooo?"
"We'll call the Watchmen!"


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Re: IGD: PARENTS VS. STEAM.

Post by Korban3 » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:54 pm

If I made a really difficult game and enough parents asked for a "Kid Mode", I'd probably give it to them, if it wasn't a massive undertaking.

I'm a huge advocate for teaching small children through games. If a game is already appropriate in content and is simply too difficult for kiddos, and it actually brings some engagement to the table, I'd patch it in a heartbeat.

Humans learn through gameplay far faster than through text books and lectures. We have brains that are geared towards play and we memorize things through the process of play much faster. I'd be downright upset if we stopped making games accessible simply because they're supposed to be hard. If the difficulty is part of the game, integrally, then make the Kiddo Patch an optional side download. We shouldn't be "Teenage to Middle Aged Hardcore Gamer" elitists. There's no reason an adult and a child can't enjoy games like FTL. In fact, I'd say that the subtle dark bits in FTL are a good thing for kids. It brings them a little bit of that maturity without dumping mature material on them.

If you flood them with mature content like violence, sex and drug use, they sponge it up. That's how kids are wired. I'd be much happier to see it slowly handed over with sharp lessons in morality, or at least cause and effect.

For example, let's say the player were given a mission. They have a few team members they've had from the beginning of the game. In this mission, the relative safety of the crew and the mission's objectives reach an impasse, where choosing one sacrifices the other. If the mission were made important enough to the player, and they had grown attached to those characters, it becomes a slightly grey moral area. When a young player makes a choice, they have an opportunity to learn a little bit about how a grey issue is traversed.

TL;DR games are great for education, at least patch your shit to make it accessible, children are the future and we should teach them with and about tech rather than avoid it


EDIT:
Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:Like someone in that post, the point is to be gory, it's kind of how the game conveys it's message.

A post on a gaming news site (That I can't find for the life of me) stated that the message requires the gore that it does, else the message/ question cannot be answered (How tolerant of violence are we? Do you like hurting people?).

Also, more idiocy: http://steamcommunity.com/app/219150/di ... 752891099/
On the topics of blood and guts in games, I think that poster is right. Children shouldn't play games with this kind of content. However, we shouldn't saddle the developers with this. The major party at fault for the lapses in this is the parents. My parents' generation didn't grow up with games and mine did. The disconnect is that they tend to use it as a babysitter and don't consider the content.

This next generation has to find a very delicate balance between "Go outside and play with a stick" and the video game babysitter. It's irresponsible to go to heavily on either side. Go full tech, and your child is likely to lack a healthy lifestyle as they enter adulthood. It's reparable, but it's a long shitty process that could be avoided by some forethought.

Too far on the other end and you get children who grow up incapable of operating in a tech heavy world. With computer skills and technical knowledge more valuable in many workplaces than ever before, a lack of them could condemn your child to a difficult future in a society that has passed both your parenting methods and your child by. It's just growing pains of society, much like the growing pains we're seeing with weapon technology, computer use, transportation and resource consumption. It's going to take time and experimentation to figure out how to handle all of these recent developments.

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Re: IGD: PARENTS VS. STEAM.

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:11 pm

Korban3 wrote:If I made a really difficult game and enough parents asked for a "Kid Mode", I'd probably give it to them, if it wasn't a massive undertaking.
This depends on the game.

A Hotline Miami kids mode? Devs stop.

I'm a huge advocate for teaching small children through games.
As am I. I do not care if you're a kid and playing a game, I have a problem when you decide you need to change it
If a game is already appropriate in content and is simply too difficult for kiddos, and it actually brings some engagement to the table, I'd patch it in a heartbeat.
Fair point, but what about games like FTL or Hotline Miami that are simply meant to be hard?

I'd be downright upset if we stopped making games accessible simply because they're supposed to be hard.
If they're supposed to be hard, let them stay hard, kids should learn.
If the difficulty is part of the game, integrally, then make the Kiddo Patch an optional side download.
Further splitting up your community, and Hardcore gamers certainly don't like easier modes.
Like Dark Souls, no difficulty settings, just hard.
We shouldn't be "Teenage to Middle Aged Hardcore Gamer" elitists.
We're not. Most people in the Souls community are mature about this sort of thing
There's no reason an adult and a child can't enjoy games like FTL.
Then why can't the child live with the difficulty?
Also, should Hotline Miami have a child's mode?
In fact, I'd say that the subtle dark bits in FTL are a good thing for kids.
Agreed,
Now I want it to be darker...
It brings them a little bit of that maturity without dumping mature material on them.
True.
If you flood them with mature content like violence, sex and drug use, they sponge it up.

I've only gone on 3 killing sprees since playing Hotline Miami. *Sarcasm
That's how kids are wired. I'd be much happier to see it slowly handed over with sharp lessons in morality, or at least cause and effect.
You can do this without taking out the difficulty.
For example, let's say the player were given a mission. They have a few team members they've had from the beginning of the game. In this mission, the relative safety of the crew and the mission's objectives reach an impasse, where choosing one sacrifices the other. If the mission were made important enough to the player, and they had grown attached to those characters, it becomes a slightly grey moral area. When a young player makes a choice, they have an opportunity to learn a little bit about how a grey issue is traversed.
Sounds like Mass Effect two, with less sex...

I'd buy it, made for kids, or not.
TL;DR games are great for education, at least patch your shit to make it accessible,
As enticing as this sounds, if I was a game developer I would never EVER do this.
children are the future and we should teach them with and about tech rather than avoid it
Hard games exist, can children just not whine about it?
On the topics of blood and guts in games, I think that poster is right. Children shouldn't play games with this kind of content. However, we shouldn't saddle the developers with this. The major party at fault for the lapses in this is the parents. My parents' generation didn't grow up with games and mine did. The disconnect is that they tend to use it as a babysitter and don't consider the content.
They're NOT responsible for the degradation of society, that's what the poster was talking about
This next generation has to find a very delicate balance between "Go outside and play with a stick" and the video game babysitter. It's irresponsible to go to heavily on either side. Go full tech, and your child is likely to lack a healthy lifestyle as they enter adulthood. It's reparable, but it's a long shitty process that could be avoided by some forethought.
My point still stands, Hotline Miami isn't responsible for the degradation of society, not by a long shot.

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Re: IGD: PARENTS VS. STEAM.

Post by Korban3 » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:52 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:stuff
The majority of what I see comes off as elitism: hardcore gamers and kids can't mix in a community and the developers should never try to make a hard game accessible at all.

I'm kind of sick of seeing games and gamers getting hard boiled and super gritty just for the sake of it. People glorify being hyper-mature and it just frustrates me. There isn't a hell of a lot wrong with encompassing kids and older gamers together. Minecraft is a perfect example. It opens up the doors to both older and younger crowds without being clunky. It could be done for a lot of games.

In the end, I'm not telling you to make your games that way. I'm saying that if I made a game and some parents said, "Hey, this is a great game and I'd love for my kid to play it, but it's too gory and seems a tad too difficult for them. Is there a chance you could add a kid mode with no gore and a little bit easier difficulty?" I would tell them "Sure, I'll see what I can do" and I'd do it.

I love my gritty games as much as the next guy, but not a lot of games have enough worth in their identity as 'hard boiled' to merit me playing it for just that.

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Re: IGD: PARENTS VS. STEAM.

Post by Ragdollmaster » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:15 pm

Does anyone else taste the delicious irony in Phoenix talking about little kids

I sure do

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Re: IGD: PARENTS VS. STEAM.

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:00 pm

Ragdollmaster wrote:Does anyone else taste the delicious irony in Phoenix talking about little kids

I sure do
You know...


Fuck you.

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Re: IGD: PARENTS VS. STEAM.

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:34 pm

Update:

HAH I WAS RIGHT

Gods Will Be Watching made a new trailer and got an age restriction put in place

Trailer.

Remember hunterRose? That idiot from the Hotline Miami forums?

Well he did this.

The thread was deleted.

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Re: IGD: PARENTS VS. STEAM.

Post by EPR89 » Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:42 pm

He did what?

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