I regret everything.

[Phoenixwarrior141]

Elaborate as too what the fuck I just read.

(Someone copy and paste that below everything I've posted ever)

[Endoperez]

Zoe Quinn has IRC chatlogs from a chatroom where people from 4chan talked about this conspiracy. She's posting choice bits on twitter. The ABANDON IRC stuff looks like a 4chan post - it's a reaction to her confirm ing she' following that irc channel. Could be fake reaction too, but I thought it was hilarious. "Cooties in clubhouse! Abandon ship! "

[Phoenixwarrior141]

Zoe Quinn has IRC chatlogs from a chatroom where people from 4chan talked about this conspiracy. She's posting choice bits on twitter. The ABANDON IRC stuff looks like a 4chan post - it's a reaction to her confirm ing she' following that irc channel. Could be fake reaction too, but I thought it was hilarious. "Cooties in clubhouse! Abandon ship! "

I mean what the fuck they were talking about.

[Phoenixwarrior141]

Sigh, here's an example:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/thr ... ale-Humans

NO. NO.

STOP THIS.

STOP FUCKING DOING THIS.

YOU DO NOT MAKE ME RESPECT WOMEN IN ANY FUCKING WAY. FUCK OFF ALREADY.

[EPR89]

Showing us representative examples again, I see...

It's also nice that you, as a male, almost never have to deal with not being able to identify with the characters in the games you play.

[Phoenixwarrior141]

Showing us representative examples again, I see...

It's also nice that you, as a male, almost never have to deal with not being able to identify with the characters in the games you play.

I never try. Ever.

Never tried to identify with Burden from GWBW.

Never tried to identify with my guy from Warband.

Never tried to identify with my Skyrim character.

Never, tried.

[Endoperez]

Whether or not you identify with the characters in your games doesn't matter, since we weren't discussing you. You brought this thread back because you think this was a faulty, false, wrong etc. statement:

"I've seen first hand women quit Kerbal Space Program simply because they can't choose a feminine character. You might say “whatever” here and walk away, but it is imperative this be fixed for Kerbal EDU. "

Well, I can prove that this statement is scientifically accurate.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 3213002392

"Drawing upon a survey among 2261 girls between10 and 17 of age, our results show that identification with characters in the game is an important process in explaining girls’ gaming motivations."

In other worlds, if your goal is to get girls between 10 and 17 to play a scientific game so they learn things, having characters that the girls can identify with is going to help you towards that goal.

Why should people stop trying to help kids learn science?
Why should people stop trying to have kids play video games?

[Grayswandir]

Although I thought Kerbals were basically genderless, having more variety is nice. From what I get from the thread, its a non-issue anyway since the developers already put the topic under "things not to ask for" since they're already planning on adding female Kerbals as it is.

[Endoperez]

Although I thought Kerbals were basically genderless, having more variety is nice. From what I get from the thread, its a non-issue anyway since the developers already put the topic under "things not to ask for" since they're already planning on adding female Kerbals as it is.

The thread was made to explain the need, not just to request. Non-issue for kerbal development, but something like that should explain the need to people who are unbiased but don't see the need for more feminine characters in games.

[Phoenixwarrior141]

Whether or not you identify with the characters in your games doesn't matter, since we weren't discussing you.

If I don't do it, and people who aren't playing specifically made RPG games aren't doing it. Why should we care?

You brought this thread back because you think this was a faulty, false, wrong etc. statement:

"I've seen first hand women quit Kerbal Space Program simply because they can't choose a feminine character. You might say “whatever” here and walk away, but it is imperative this be fixed for Kerbal EDU. "

No, I thought that it was bullshit. Here's another post

Who cares if they're genderless, I don't really care to know. But we need some Kerbals to appear feminine for feminine players.

This means 3 things:

- We need to add specifically designated female Kerbals, but let the others stay genderless.

- We need to make every Kerbal seem specifically feminine so female players aren't terrified of the Kerbals who may look at them and rape them somehow.

- We need female and male Kerbals. Because "ERRR FEMALES NEERD BEWBY CHACTERZ TO RELATE TO. ADD PLZ"

I'm going for 1 or 3.

Well, I can prove that this statement is scientifically accurate.

And we should care about it why? Statistics are good sure, but why does it matter in the spectrum of gameplay?

Sure, you can apply a lot of science to make a game which will sell well in theory. But I'll bash the living shit out of it if the game itself sucks.

"Drawing upon a survey among 2261 girls between10 and 17 of age, our results show that identification with characters in the game is an important process in explaining girls’ gaming motivations."

In other worlds, if your goal is to get girls between 10 and 17 to play a scientific game so they learn things, having characters that the girls can identify with is going to help you towards that goal.

And Squad doesn't, it just wants people to play the game. No one specific.

Why should people stop trying to help kids learn science?

Why should we appeal to the idiots who having characters similar to them is a deal breaker.

PS: One last prod to put it in perspective. Imagine the faction of young boys who would become disinterested if they sat down to play rocket-game and found only female Kerbals

This post is bullshit. I doubt ANYONE would be disinterested in sending boob aliens into space in shitty spaceships.

This argument can't be reversed. There are minimal amounts of people who will not buy a game if it doesn't have women/men in it. Statistics barely represent instances where gender doesn't matter.

Why should people stop trying to have kids play video games?

The entirety of my Gods Will Be Watching screenshots show that gaming can be dark and scary. Sorry if you're only just now realizing this.

On a serious note: We aren't. I doubt half the kids supposedly playing KSP actually care about the Kerbals in the first place. Regardless of boobs.

[EPR89]

Whether or not you identify with the characters in your games doesn't matter, since we weren't discussing you.

If I don't do it, and people who aren't playing specifically made RPG games aren't doing it. Why should we care?

Someone give me a good reason why I should even care to read any further.

You are not the only type of person playing games whose opinion deserves to be respected. There sure as shit are people who are not playing hardcore RPGs who like to immerse themselves in the world of the game. And for them it would be nice if the game facilitated it. For you, who doesn't give a shit about it, it obviously shouldn't be an issue.
But this is obviously not true. If it was, this thread would not exist.

[Endoperez]

Whether or not you identify with the characters in your games doesn't matter, since we weren't discussing you.

If I don't do it, and people who aren't playing specifically made RPG games aren't doing it. Why should we care?

You are objectively wrong here. Here's a paper that attempted to scientifically define immersion.

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Pau ... 76ae000000

"However despite these differences in game design and appearance, successful
computer games all have one important element in common: they have an ability to draw
people in. Providing an appealing distraction from everyday worries and concerns,
computer games allow people to “lose” themselves in the world of the game. Sometimes
people find the game so engaging that they do not notice things around them, such as the
amount of time that has passed, or another person calling their name. At such moments,
almost all of their attention is focused on the game, even to the extent that some people
describe themselves as being “in the game.”
This experience is referred to as “immersion”, a term used by gamers and
reviewers alike. Immersion is often viewed as critical to game enjoyment, immersion
being the outcome of a good gaming experience."

Also similarities between the player avatar / playable character and the player his- or herself do affect immersion for some players.

http://www.psychologyofgames.com/2010/0 ... deo-games/

"Other researchers have also pointed to a concept they call “involvement” which is a media user’s desire to act in the make-believe world, to draw parallels between it and his life, and to effect changes in it according to their own design. To me, this seems like an overly fancy way of saying “some people like to role-play” which leads directly to greater immersion."

This has been studied and seems to be true specifically for educational games.

http://cie.asu.edu/ojs/index.php/cieata ... le/813/366

" The ideal self condition resulted in the highest levels of
involvement and enjoyment of game, learning[.]"

Ideal self avatar was compared to real self and third-party avatar. This was specifically concerning educational games.

It's not just role-playing games, it's all games, and it's specifically educational games. We should care because identification lets at least some people experience more immersion, which lets them enjoy the game more and learn more from the game.

"I've seen first hand women quit Kerbal Space Program simply because they can't choose a feminine character. You might say “whatever” here and walk away, but it is imperative this be fixed for Kerbal EDU. "

No, I thought that it was bullshit.

So you don't like it because you, subjectively, didn't like it? Okay, that's fine.

It won't convince anyone or anything.

Especially when the poster included "you might say 'whatever' here and walk away" and then you did just that without considering the possibility that it's imperative that it's fixed for Kerbal EDU.

Here's another post

Who cares if they're genderless, I don't really care to know. But we need some Kerbals to appear feminine for feminine players.

This means 3 things:

- We need to add specifically designated female Kerbals, but let the others stay genderless.

- We need to make every Kerbal seem specifically feminine so female players aren't terrified of the Kerbals who may look at them and rape them somehow.

- We need female and male Kerbals. Because "ERRR FEMALES NEERD BEWBY CHACTERZ TO RELATE TO. ADD PLZ"

I'm going for 1 or 3.

I bolded the things I disagree with.

A - There's a difference between feminine and female. A genderless object can be feminine, and not become female.
A1 - If this is true, then feminine Kerbals can be added without "adding specifically designed female kerbals".

If you disagree, it's enough that you prove that A does not result into A1.

B - Similarly, an object may be genderless, but still be more masculine than feminine. I will explain why a kid might think that a Kerbal is masculine. If that is true, from it follows...
B1 - While Kerbals would "stay genderless" with the addition of feminine characters, they are already masculine despite being genderless, and as such Kerbal was biased in the first place.



To prove point A, that feminine and female, masculine and male are different... here are masculine and feminine objects:

Here are chairs, pens, backpacks and drinks that are masculine and feminine. Except for the last two, they couldn't, IMO, be said to be male or female. The last two are good designs, but wtf? That's so silly. I hope Kerbals don't go that way. The people in the thread you dismissed think so too (I'll leave that one for you to find, as homework).

All of these are among the first 1-3 Google image search results for the keyword search, with the exact same keyword except that I replaced "feminine" with "masculine". The exception to this is the "feminine drink" search, in which I chose a result further down that more closely matched the masculine image; the first results were similar but had pink or white backgrounds.

Okay, so now we have established that something that is not female can be feminine. That Kerbals can be feminine without being female.

Now, are Kerbals as they are masculine? Now, what are Kerbals like:



Okay, so what do we have here?
First, Kerbals themselves. Eyes wide apart, and bulging out. Their skin is desaturated yellow-green color that doesn't seem to perfectly match any specific named, widely used color, but isn't too far from yellow-green, avocado or pistachio. Wide shoulders, big round belly. The head is more or less a cylinder. Short hair trimmed on the back. Short black dirt and/or stubble in the chin, most apparent in the guy in the center, facing right. No nose, ears, eyelids, eyelashes.

Second, their apparel. Dirty yellow overalls. Yellow hard hat. Dirty plain white t-shirt with a crew neck. A large hammer that mostly looks like a miniature maul. An astronaut in a bright red astronaut suit.

Eyes wide apart - females have slightly smaller pupillary distance, so having eyes wide apart is a masculine trait. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pupillary_distance

The head is a cylinder with the "jawline" being very angular as a result. Angular jaw is a masculine trait, while a round jaw would be a feminine one. A capsule-shaped head would be more feminine.

Bulging eyes, dirty clothes, rather ugly froglike skin color - an trait associated with ugliness, frogs, reptiles etc. Our society encourages girls to be beautiful, so they might have more trouble identifying with an ugly character. These are not masculine traits, but they are traits some girls might dislike. Smoothing out the skin color would help a bit.


The hard hat, overalls, dirtiness, the short hair etc. draw similarities towards construction workers. The big bulging eyes, cylindrical head, sparse short hair in the back of the head, the belly and the white t-shirt are also similar to Homer Simpson, but it's clearly the construction worker stereotype they're mostly working from. The stereotype of the construction worker is a big, burly, strong male.

Red astronaut costume - red is often a feminine color, but bright, saturated red is also sometimes a very male colour, especially in a uniform (or maybe that's just redshirts). Red is actually be a great color for a gender-neutral astronaut uniform!


So again, here's a collage that points out some of the masculine traits inherent in the Kerbal designs, contrasts it with male and female workers, and in the bottom there's a quick feminine kerbal. I grabbed the headscarf from that female worker picture, obviously, but I'm sure someone who spent more time on this could come up with something much better.

I changed the jawline to be rounder, moved the eyes slightly closer, made the shoulders slightly less wide, smoothed out the skin (but didn't change the color), removed the stubble, added a bit more volume to the hair... The headscarf is the biggest change, really.

Let's go back to this then:

- We need to make every Kerbal seem specifically feminine so female players aren't terrified of the Kerbals who may look at them and rape them somehow.

C - This is besides the point(s), but it's such unfortunate baggage that you dragged in that I'll say a few words.

The point was to have more kerbals so everyone was included. This is all from your own head.

You're saying that female players are terrified of the kerbals who are not female. This is called androphobia, and you're just a tiny step away from saying that female players need psychological help. That's bad, okay? It's not okay to insult people like that.

The rape comment seems to be about the "why are women afraid to talk with me as if I were a rapist, that's just as bad as calling me a rapist and that's wrong" mentality.It's a misconception - understandable and unfortunate one, I didn't get it either until I had read this great article.

http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest ... ing-maced/

- We need female and male Kerbals. Because "ERRR FEMALES NEERD BEWBY CHACTERZ TO RELATE TO. ADD PLZ"

D

D - In the first part of this post, I provided scientific studies which state that having an ideal-self avatar improves learning results and enjoyment etc.

Well, I can prove that this statement is scientifically accurate.

And we should care about it why? Statistics are good sure, but why does it matter in the spectrum of gameplay?

Sure, you can apply a lot of science to make a game which will sell well in theory. But I'll bash the living shit out of it if the game itself sucks.

As stated above, immersion makes a game more enjoyable, and identification with a character helps immersion at least in some cases. That's why it matters.

This Friday I listened to a cyberpsychologist who explained what psychological factors make people spend money in free-to-play games, and also how to design characters that are more relatable and avoid uncanny valley (animating the forehead and the area around eyes is apparently very important, Ellie from Last of Us was a great example). The science makes it easier to do both games that are more financially successful and better.

"Drawing upon a survey among 2261 girls between10 and 17 of age, our results show that identification with characters in the game is an important process in explaining girls’ gaming motivations."

In other worlds, if your goal is to get girls between 10 and 17 to play a scientific game so they learn things, having characters that the girls can identify with is going to help you towards that goal.

And Squad doesn't, it just wants people to play the game. No one specific.

All games have a target audience. All games appeal to just a portion of people. It's always specific.
I can't find a game named just Squad, could you give me a link? Based on the name, I'll wager a guess that the game includes one or more of the following elements: military, army, teamwork, teams that consist of male soldiers, green and/or camo clothing, guns, explosions, shooting. Those things usually draw more boys than they do girls, in which case Squad would be targeted towards boys more than girls.

Again, this is all conjecture based on just the name, but if Squad happens to be a team-based shooting game, a similar game can be targeted towards both boys and girls. Splatoon, by Nintendo, is superb in this regard.



However, Splatoon isn't for everyone. As I said, all games have an audience. Splatoon's audience is kids of both genders. It's a valid choice, but you and me? We might never play this game, and might never want to play this game. Then again, I'm not a fan of shooters so maybe I'll never play Squad, if it's a shooter.

Why should people stop trying to help kids learn science?

Why should we appeal to the idiots who having characters similar to them is a deal breaker.

Because having an ideal-self avatar improves learning results across the board as proven by the scientific paper I linked to in the first part of this post.

Also because it's a gradient, not pure black and pure white. More immersion increases enjoyment. Less immersion decreases enjoyment. This is true for most people.

PS: One last prod to put it in perspective. Imagine the faction of young boys who would become disinterested if they sat down to play rocket-game and found only female Kerbals

This post is bullshit. I doubt ANYONE would be disinterested in sending boob aliens into space in shitty spaceships.

"Boob aliens".
Again, feminine isn't female. In the thread they specifically hope it's not boobs and pink ribbons! And it's about educational games for kids, who do not yet enjoy boobs but do have strong opinions on what's for boys and what's for girls!

This argument can't be reversed. There are minimal amounts of people who will not buy a game if it doesn't have women/men in it. Statistics barely represent instances where gender doesn't matter.

Then why was Arwen's role increased in the LotR movies as compared to the books?
Why is there Tauriel in the Hobbit movies?
Because there are numerous people who will not watch a movie if it doesn't have women in it, and for the ones who watch it, the subliminal message and the worldview that encourages is that women aren't important, women don't do important things. As explained below:

http://www.upi.com/Entertainment_News/M ... 388525311/

I keep repeatedly telling people, 'In this day and age, to put nine hours of cinema in the theaters for young girls to go and watch and not have one female character is subliminally telling them you don't count, you're not important and you're not pivotal to story.' And I just think [the filmmakers] were very brave and very right in saying, 'We won't do that to the young female audience, who will come watch our films.' And not just the young female audience, but even women of my own age. I think it is time that we stop making stories that are only about men, especially only about heroic men, and I love that they made Tauriel a hero.

So there.

Why should people stop trying to have kids play video games?

The entirety of my Gods Will Be Watching screenshots show that gaming can be dark and scary. Sorry if you're only just now realizing this.

Gaming is that, too. It's also kids games. It's also girl games. It's also, I don't know, MineCraft, and social games, and board games and everything.

There are games that are not suitable for kids.

Does this mean that no games anywhere ever should be suitable for kids? NO!
Again, do you want to stop kids from playing video games?

On a serious note: We aren't. I doubt half the kids supposedly playing KSP actually care about the Kerbals in the first place. Regardless of boobs.

Again, science.
Again, it's about kids identifying with a character. Kids do not even have boobs! Feminine, not female.


TL;DR Arguments.

[Glabbit]

Good lord, Endo, I must commend, nay, congratulate you on your patience, research, and general eloquence in presentation.

This is good stuff.
Science indeed.

[Phoenixwarrior141]

You are objectively wrong here. Here's a paper that attempted to scientifically define immersion.

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Pau ... 76ae000000

Here's a short list of games where immersion isn't a factor:

Gods Will Be Watching (Try to roleplay that shit. TELL me the results)

Luftrausers

FTL (No, you'll fail if you try)

Prison Architect

Black Shades

Plague Inc.

Spelunky.

All of these games have features which kill immersion. Yet it's almost NEVER brought against them in the reviews.

Also similarities between the player avatar / playable character and the player his- or herself do affect immersion for some players.

Of course it does. Those people aren't going to get to play a lot of games because sooner or later in GWBW you can't roleplay it if you want to succeed.

Sooner or later in FTL you'll make to many ethical decisions and fail to get the necessary materials.

This has been studied and seems to be true specifically for educational games.

What about non-educational games?

What about games that aren't educational and have 0 immersive elements?

It's not just role-playing games, it's all games, and it's specifically educational games. We should care because identification lets at least some people experience more immersion, which lets them enjoy the game more and learn more from the game.

Educational games aren't supposed to be immersive. KSP Really isn't.

So you don't like it because you, subjectively, didn't like it? Okay, that's fine.

It won't convince anyone or anything.

Especially when the poster included "you might say 'whatever' here and walk away" and then you did just that without considering the possibility that it's imperative that it's fixed for Kerbal EDU.

Okay then.

I bolded the things I disagree with.

A - There's a difference between feminine and female. A genderless object can be feminine, and not become female.
A1 - If this is true, then feminine Kerbals can be added without "adding specifically designed female kerbals".

If you disagree, it's enough that you prove that A does not result into A1.

B - Similarly, an object may be genderless, but still be more masculine than feminine. I will explain why a kid might think that a Kerbal is masculine. If that is true, from it follows...
B1 - While Kerbals would "stay genderless" with the addition of feminine characters, they are already masculine despite being genderless, and as such Kerbal was biased in the first place.



To prove point A, that feminine and female, masculine and male are different... here are masculine and feminine objects:

masculine_vs_feminine.png

Here are chairs, pens, backpacks and drinks that are masculine and feminine. Except for the last two, they couldn't, IMO, be said to be male or female. The last two are good designs, but wtf? That's so silly. I hope Kerbals don't go that way. The people in the thread you dismissed think so too (I'll leave that one for you to find, as homework).

There is a big difference between the supposed masculine chair, that looks like a normal chair that anyone could sit in, and the girly chair, which might get you made fun of.

The double standard still stands.

Okay, so what do we have here?
First, Kerbals themselves. Eyes wide apart, and bulging out. Their skin is desaturated yellow-green color that doesn't seem to perfectly match any specific named, widely used color, but isn't too far from yellow-green, avocado or pistachio. Wide shoulders, big round belly. The head is more or less a cylinder. Short hair trimmed on the back. Short black dirt and/or stubble in the chin, most apparent in the guy in the center, facing right. No nose, ears, eyelids, eyelashes.

Second, their apparel. Dirty yellow overalls. Yellow hard hat. Dirty plain white t-shirt with a crew neck. A large hammer that mostly looks like a miniature maul. An astronaut in a bright red astronaut suit.

Eyes wide apart - females have slightly smaller pupillary distance, so having eyes wide apart is a masculine trait. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pupillary_distance

The head is a cylinder with the "jawline" being very angular as a result. Angular jaw is a masculine trait, while a round jaw would be a feminine one. A capsule-shaped head would be more feminine.

Bulging eyes, dirty clothes, rather ugly froglike skin color - an trait associated with ugliness, frogs, reptiles etc. Our society encourages girls to be beautiful, so they might have more trouble identifying with an ugly character. These are not masculine traits, but they are traits some girls might dislike. Smoothing out the skin color would help a bit.


The hard hat, overalls, dirtiness, the short hair etc. draw similarities towards construction workers. The big bulging eyes, cylindrical head, sparse short hair in the back of the head, the belly and the white t-shirt are also similar to Homer Simpson, but it's clearly the construction worker stereotype they're mostly working from. The stereotype of the construction worker is a big, burly, strong male.

Red astronaut costume - red is often a feminine color, but bright, saturated red is also sometimes a very male colour, especially in a uniform (or maybe that's just redshirts). Red is actually be a great color for a gender-neutral astronaut uniform!

A list of things you got wrong:

- Kerbals in game have helmets and look the same.

- Kerbals in game can have female names and look the same (Mildred Kerman).

C - This is besides the point(s), but it's such unfortunate baggage that you dragged in that I'll say a few words.

The point was to have more kerbals so everyone was included. This is all from your own head.

Okay then...

You're saying that female players are terrified of the kerbals who are not female. This is called androphobia, and you're just a tiny step away from saying that female players need psychological help. That's bad, okay? It's not okay to insult people like that.

The rape comment seems to be about the "why are women afraid to talk with me as if I were a rapist, that's just as bad as calling me a rapist and that's wrong" mentality.It's a misconception - understandable and unfortunate one, I didn't get it either until I had read this great article.

The entire comment was a nod to a hilarious joke (And subsequent GIF) I saw where a woman equated getting looked at on the street (Near ass naked in a ghetto I might add) to rape and sexual abuse.

Sexual Abuse is bad but you're a moving female with tits practically hanging out. Someone is going to look at you.

D - In the first part of this post, I provided scientific studies which state that having an ideal-self avatar improves learning results and enjoyment etc.

As a veteran KSP player, I can say that having female Kerbals in the game would be little more than an annoyance or not noticed at all.

There is 0 reason to give a damn about your Kerbals. It's better to kill them (And more fun I might add).

As stated above, immersion makes a game more enjoyable, and identification with a character helps immersion at least in some cases. That's why it matters.

This Friday I listened to a cyberpsychologist who explained what psychological factors make people spend money in free-to-play games, and also how to design characters that are more relatable and avoid uncanny valley (animating the forehead and the area around eyes is apparently very important, Ellie from Last of Us was a great example). The science makes it easier to do both games that are more financially successful and better.

GWBW disproves this. It's a damn pixel art game and the people barely look human. Sorry but I enjoyed that more than The Last of Us.

All games have a target audience. All games appeal to just a portion of people. It's always specific.

You really don't. You can make a game with the vague appeal of "Adults" and that's all you really need to specify.

I can't find a game named just Squad,

Squad is the team behind Curse. They generally sit on their asses building hype and enjoying the free publicity KSP has gotten from NASA. And making dumbass decisions of people to partner with.

could you give me a link? Based on the name, I'll wager a guess that the game includes one or more of the following elements: military, army, teamwork, teams that consist of male soldiers, green and/or camo clothing, guns, explosions, shooting.

I now want to play Army of Two...

Those things usually draw more boys than they do girls, in which case Squad would be targeted towards boys more than girls.

Generally known tendency.

Again, this is all conjecture based on just the name, but if Squad happens to be a team-based shooting game, a similar game can be targeted towards both boys and girls. Splatoon, by Nintendo, is superb in this regard.

I would never, in a million years touch that. I like hilarious games that love to say ""Fuck it. JOKES" but I also like games that are... Well

However, Splatoon isn't for everyone. As I said, all games have an audience. Splatoon's audience is kids of both genders. It's a valid choice, but you and me? We might never play this game, and might never want to play this game. Then again, I'm not a fan of shooters so maybe I'll never play Squad, if it's a shooter.

I agree with this. But should we change GWBW to cater to a new audience? The developers had to say "Fuck it" to their original vision just to stay above water. Casuls, women and children are all deadly forces in the gaming industry.

Because having an ideal-self avatar improves learning results across the board as proven by the scientific paper I linked to in the first part of this post.

Also because it's a gradient, not pure black and pure white. More immersion increases enjoyment. Less immersion decreases enjoyment. This is true for most people.

I doubt those people would enjoy a scientific game regardless. They'd probably enjoy a RPG or more immersive experience.

"Boob aliens".
Again, feminine isn't female. In the thread they specifically hope it's not boobs and pink ribbons! And it's about educational games for kids, who do not yet enjoy boobs but do have strong opinions on what's for boys and what's for girls!

Yet I said before. You can have supposed "Masculine" objects that are just normal things and female objects that "Aren't".

Then why was Arwen's role increased in the LotR movies as compared to the books?
Why is there Tauriel in the Hobbit movies?

Because visions don't matter once feminazis enter the equation.

Because there are numerous people who will not watch a movie if it doesn't have women in it,

Fuck them.

and for the ones who watch it, the subliminal message and the worldview that encourages is that women aren't important, women don't do important things.

I doubt not having women makes a thing encourage misogyny. Space Hulk doesn't encourage misogyny yet it has no women.

I keep repeatedly telling people, 'In this day and age, to put nine hours of cinema in the theaters for young girls to go and watch and not have one female character is subliminally telling them you don't count, you're not important and you're not pivotal to story.' And I just think [the filmmakers] were very brave and very right in saying, 'We won't do that to the young female audience, who will come watch our films.' And not just the young female audience, but even women of my own age. I think it is time that we stop making stories that are only about men, especially only about heroic men, and I love that they made Tauriel a hero.

Good job being a special snowflake, feminazi AND a SJW. YOU DESERVE A FUCKING MEDAL.

Gaming is that, too. It's also kids games. It's also girl games. It's also, I don't know, MineCraft, and social games, and board games and everything.

There are games that are not suitable for kids.

Of course. There are also games not suitable for women (The Space Hulk universe) too. We can make games suitable for women if they decide they don't need the virtual world to change for them.

Does this mean that no games anywhere ever should be suitable for kids? NO!
Again, do you want to stop kids from playing video games?

No, but I would love it if my GWBW like games exist. The more children that can die in video games, the better the industry is. (If you saw my screenshots thread, you'd see that there is a child in the room with the space terrorist. He can die).

Again, science.
Again, it's about kids identifying with a character. Kids do not even have boobs! Feminine, not female.

[/quote]
I don't know how to argue this. But I'll say that if children want to do orbital mechanics but the deciding factor is the lack of women, I don't think the developers know what the fuck to do with that.

[EPR89]

You are objectively wrong here. Here's a paper that attempted to scientifically define immersion.

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Pau ... 76ae000000

Here's a short list of games where immersion isn't a factor:

Gods Will Be Watching (Try to roleplay that shit. TELL me the results)

Luftrausers

FTL (No, you'll fail if you try)

Prison Architect

Black Shades

Plague Inc.

Spelunky.

All of these games have features which kill immersion. Yet it's almost NEVER brought against them in the reviews.

I have only played Luftrausers and Black Shades.
You can absolutley roleplay these games. I know that I do, especially with Black Shades.

Also similarities between the player avatar / playable character and the player his- or herself do affect immersion for some players.

Of course it does. Those people aren't going to get to play a lot of games because sooner or later in GWBW you can't roleplay it if you want to succeed.

Sooner or later in FTL you'll make to many ethical decisions and fail to get the necessary materials.

Ethical decisions and conflicts that force you to make decisions are great for roleplaying.

It's not just role-playing games, it's all games, and it's specifically educational games. We should care because identification lets at least some people experience more immersion, which lets them enjoy the game more and learn more from the game.

Educational games aren't supposed to be immersive. KSP Really isn't.

Alright, so here's the deal. You have no idea how to roleplay games, probably have no real interest in doing it either. That's perfectly fine. Play the way you like o play. But, for the love of god, stop taking shit about it whn you just don't get it and assume what people like me, who roleplay frequently, should do. Like, seriously, in this whole thread you are trying to tell us how we should play games. I mean - pardon my French - can you get any more fucking obnoxious than this?
You can roleplay just about any game. In KSP you build a spacecraft and send little guys on missions, right? It's incredibly easy to roleplay a game like that. Put yourself in the position of one of them. Out yourself in the position of the ground commander responsible for the mission. Put yourself in the position of a godlike narrator.
Bam! Roleplaying.

That's how I like to play games. I literally cannot just sit down and fulfill objectives. That's boring to me. I always think of a story behind what I am doing. And games that give me more options to come up with stories are generally more enjoyable to me. That's just how it is.

I really don't get why you hate all this so much. If you don't want to roleplay, why do things like these even bother you? This whole thread makes no sense. It's as if you had some kind of personal vendetta against people who roleplay and like to immerse themselves in the games they are playing (with a special hatred for women doing this).

But, honestly, I don't even know why I'm making an effort here. Every time someone brings up legitimate criticism to your strange belief that everyone should just play games the way you do you answer it with: "Meh. Whatever."
There is no discussion going on here. Just you repeating the same contradictory lines over and over again, with no justification for what you are saying whatsoever and without ever acknowledging what anyone else says.