Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization.

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Phoenixwarrior141
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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:56 am

1: Fair enough.

2: My point was that most gamers just game on and don't care, any invisible benefits are just that, invisible.

By Anita logic, these people are at fault for taking these benefits open handed without caring or saying otherwise, rather then the benefits themselves at fault.

3: I'd like to respond to this with an un-philosophical but philosophical response:

Every social justice movement in the history of ever has been to change the status quo for one's own benefit, or the benefit of those who can't or don't care enough to change it.

Feminism is only different for one reason, you know what that is?

Feminists tried to achieve their goals but tried to screw over as few people as possible, while other movements ended up screwing someone (Slavery started a war, for the right cause) or other, feminism tried to make a change without harming anyone (Unless you count prohibition, in which case, a lot of people got hurt).

If history is any indicator (And it seems to be), all social justice movements are simply:

"1: Change the status quo under noble banner

2: Wait

3: Profit."

And always will be.

So yes, feminism is just changing the status quo because they don't like how things are.

Also, a scene from Family Guy is a good analogy to gaming:

In this episode, the wives of the main characters (You should know their names) come and shit up the bar they go to, which was an escape from the women.

Following that, they made a males only club which served the same function.

You can kinda see the relationship already can't you?

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:42 am

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:2: My point was that most gamers just game on and don't care, any invisible benefits are just that, invisible.

By Anita logic, these people are at fault for taking these benefits open handed without caring or saying otherwise, rather then the benefits themselves at fault.
The benefits are at fault, but if the people benefitting from them do not acknowledge it, nothing will change.

"In order to make change first we need to acknowledge the problem, and then we must take responsibility for it as a community, so we can actively work together, with people of all genders, to dismantle the parts of gaming culture that perpetuate these imbalances."
3: Feminists tried to achieve their goals but tried to screw over as few people as possible, while other movements ended up screwing someone

If history is any indicator (And it seems to be), all social justice movements are simply:

"1: Change the status quo under noble banner

2: Wait

3: Profit."

And always will be.
There's lots of other movements that didn't screw anyone any more than feminism has done. Gandhi is famous for one of them, lots of movements for e.g. same-sex marriage, against animal abuse, against racism, segregation, for better work standards etc. have been and stayed peaceful.

Yup, social justice movements want to change the status quo. I... agree with that. Which is kinda weird, but also cool. Gotta say, we haven't agreed on things, on seemingly anything, for a while now. :mrgreen:

I'm not sure if I've ever watched a full episode of Family Guy, but I've seen that story several times. Sometimes it's a gentleman's club, sometimes it's a treehouse.

In this case, you think the whole of Steam is the clubhouse where women and feminism aren't allowed. Steam is the single biggest digital games selling platform on PC. It's like banning women not from a bar, but the whole international chain of specialty shops. Like, for example, whater Mac stores are called. iStores? iShops? Apple Markets? The places where you buy physical Mac products.

Safe spaces are needed. I totally agree.
For some people Twitter used to be such a space.
For some people Steam, or gaming in general used to be such a space.

A large, open, unlimited, unfenced space is more akin to wilderness than a safe space. To be safe, a space has to be limited, restricted in at least some minor way. Safety by obfuscation doesn't work when internet keeps your timelines open for all to see, so that if you ever become the target of someone's attention, they can retroactively listen to all your conversations.

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:35 pm

No, not women, just feminism.

Feminism is something that attacks a creator's creative vision, and that's not a good thing.

Gaming used to be a place where men/nerds could be men/nerds in peace, without outside interference.

Then, gaming tried to become some higher art.

Then, people outside the gaming community took interest

Then women came in (Or more women who weren't just nerds).

Then feminists.

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by EPR89 » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:16 pm

Women aren't gamers.
You heard it here first.

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:02 pm

That is elitist and selfish and condescending view. I disagree with the statements or the conclusions or both. There were no facts presented.

It sounds like someone crying about having to share his toys. Seriously, games being art is an amazing and long-fought-for victory! Games are respected! Reviewed, critiqued! Having more players and platforms is cool!

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:02 pm

EPR89 wrote:Women aren't gamers.
You heard it here first.
Nope, I said women weren't a majority of gamers. Nerds (Female nerds included, but we all know they aren't as plentiful as feminists would like to believe) were (I would say men, but most men were nerds and gamers).

Note the:
Gaming used to be a place where men/nerds could be men/nerds in peace, without outside interference.
followed shortly by
Then women came in (Or more women who weren't just nerds)
The men part was a bit off, since most men gaming were nerds in the first place.

Still, point stands.

In unrelated news:

Plague Inc continues to be infested by idiots who think they're itty bitty country is the most important.

Gee, sounds a lot like feminism.

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:06 pm

Endoperez wrote:That is elitist and selfish and condescending view. I disagree with the statements or the conclusions or both. There were no facts presented.
"Facts" aren't easy to show when this is all of

"Feminism, good or bad?"


It sounds like someone crying about having to share his toys.
No, women can still game. Just leave the social justice bullshit at the door.

Then, game in peace like the rest of us.
Seriously, games being art is an amazing and long-fought-for victory!
I could rant for days about how wrong this is.
Games are respected!
I died laughing.

No, they aren't. The fact people are still having discussions on the ESRB is proof of that.
Reviewed, critiqued!
By biased assholes as GamerGate shows.
Having more players and platforms is cool!
Players, sure. I'll give you that. That makes sense. It makes total sense.

Platforms? Keep it on PC.

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Ragdollmaster » Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:21 am

Image

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:01 am

ALL OF THAT WAS STUPID.

You say facts are difficult because we are discussing whether something is good or bad. If you can't show facts or arguments for your conclusion, it's just the opinion of an ego inflated by nothing but hot air.

You say women can game as long as they shut up and act like men. That only makes it sound like you're afraid your toys will catch girl cooties.

Games being art means games can be as good as books or movies, being culture and telling stories and creating emotions and experiences and making you think and forcing you to consider hard questions and being more than mere toys. Argue that. If you win, games are worse for it.

ESRB exists because 8-year-olds shouldn't play Gods Will Be Watching. Common sense can co-exist with respect.

PC is the only platform that matters? Remember the part about elitist and selfish and condescending view? Yeah.

The most ridiculous part here:
[Games are] reviewed, critiqued!
By biased assholes as GamerGate shows.
Yes. As if Gamergate were unbiased non-assholes.
As if reviewers liking games were a problem.
As if being an asshole wasn't part of AVGN's popularity.

The fact that Pewdiepie exists is proof that games made it big.
Ac: Unity getting called out is good.

Yes, there really are problems, but they are problems in a good thing that has improved in the last decade.

If you really think existence of biased assholes is a thing GamerGate opposes and protects against, you have no idea what people who are part of it do in its name.

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:49 am

Endoperez wrote:ALL OF THAT WAS STUPID.
Well, let's see.


You say facts are difficult because we are discussing whether something is good or bad. If you can't show facts or arguments for your conclusion, it's just the opinion of an ego inflated by nothing but hot air.
Except I can show arguments (And have), and can't show facts because what would I even be looking for?

You say women can game as long as they shut up and act like men. That only makes it sound like you're afraid your toys will catch girl cooties.
Wrong. I said women can game as long as they leave the feminist bullshit behind when the game begins. You can't game like a man since all games are played similarly, and no gender can play differently from the other unless the game forces them too, and even then you can still play a different gender by choice.

See now?
Games being art means games can be as good as books or movies, being culture and telling stories and creating emotions and experiences and making you think and forcing you to consider hard questions and being more than mere toys. Argue that. If you win, games are worse for it.
Then why do games like Space Hulk, FTL and Luftrausers exist?

Which outplay and are more positively reviewed then Gone Home, Depression Quest, GWBW and arguably This War of Mine.

Games should not be regarded as art, they shouldn't try to be pompous, pretentious political crap that try to send a message completely unrelated to games to the player. We shouldn't say the industry is "Growing up" because games that are about real life issues and send real messages to the player are becoming more popular, that's ludicrous.

Just like not every movie needs to be art and perfection, not every game needs to either.

And they shouldn't try to be.
ESRB exists because 8-year-olds shouldn't play Gods Will Be Watching. Common sense can co-exist with respect.
Then why are discussions of censorship happening if games are art?

Common Sense can be used if you take the 2 seconds to look about the store page and determine if children should play the game.

But nope, people call for censorship when the potential for children to see it is there, and the ESRB allows parents to judge "Art" on it's ability to "Corrupt" the children.

PC is the only platform that matters? Remember the part about elitist and selfish and condescending view? Yeah.
I speak only in facts.

The most ridiculous part here:


Yes. As if Gamergate were unbiased non-assholes.
Never claimed they weren't. I was trying to say that their existence was proof that gaming journalism isn't as perfect as you'd like to think.
As if reviewers liking games were a problem.
No, but bias is.
As if being an asshole wasn't part of AVGN's popularity.
Yay.

The fact that Pewdiepie exists is proof that games made it big.
Yet, most of his popularity comes from children.

Ac: Unity getting called out is good.
On what exactly?
If you really think existence of biased assholes is a thing GamerGate opposes and protects against, you have no idea what people who are part of it do in its name.
1: No, I never claimed that.
2: That is the BAD PART OF THE GG NOT GG AS A WHOLE
Last edited by Phoenixwarrior141 on Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:25 am

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:
Ac: Unity getting called out is good.
On what exactly?
On being so bad, buggy and broken everyone got either a free DLC, or a second full game... And publisher trying to hide it by not allowing reviews before release. You know. Stuff that's actually about ethics in games journalism.

http://www.polygon.com/2014/11/11/71934 ... ew-embargo


http://www.polygon.com/2014/11/13/72151 ... in-wake-of
The rest of your post had some ridiculoys things.

1 - your statements about feminism haven't convinced anyone here. Real convincing, huh?

2
all games are played similarly, and no gender can play differently from the other unless the game forces them to
So it's not that women should be like men, it's women are exactly like men and there's no choice about that... Eh?


3
I speak only in facts.

The most ridiculous part here:
........ Yes.

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Sat Dec 06, 2014 5:41 am

Any way. We could talk about art.

Games as art. And why it is a good thing that games are finally accepted as an art form.


The crux of the issue is this:

Photography is art. That doesn't stop you from taking and seeing pictures, but it means that the best photographs are better than they would otherwise be. Pushing games further raises the bar, which means better games.

Painting is art. It doesn't mean that every childish watercolor work is a masterpiece, but it means that the greatest paintings of the greatest masters are preserved, studied and documented so that future creators have higher goals, better tools and techniques, better understanding, better teachers... And the ability to study the old masters.
Games will be in museums, showcased, celebrated, remembered. Internet archive hosts old games. People study Doom's level design, Portal's narrative, etc.

Literature is art. Books might be just oral stories without a teller and a way to store data. But they are so much more! They are not just bedside stories to entertain and ghost stories to scare, they are not just fables that come with a lesson or memories and wisdom to share with the 'ung uns. Books create worlds, teach new emotions, speculate the future, explain the past, describe alien cultures, alien life, sadness of a child's death, anger that drives a man to kill...
Literature can be one-way telepathy with another mind. It can change how you think, see things.

Spec Ops The Line is a story told already in books and movies, in art. To make a game that makes a statement like that is art! What makes us human, where do we draw the line, etc.
If games were not art, couldn't be art, didn't strive to be art, they would be technical wonders with no soul, picture books with no message, action that provides stimuli without provoking thought. They could be sport, a triumph of skill, but games' ability to tell stories would be a mere fragment of their potential. Pac-man was a technical wonder.

The painter Goya was influenced by war. Here's your Gods will be watching: a statement on violence:

Image

Magritte's famous painting, 'This is not a pipe' reminds us that the image isn't a real thing. It reminds me of Portal, which oozes style, is instantly recognizable, and also created a meme about a lie.
One day soon a game will have immortalized a catchphrase that describes the game's themes so well it can be used to describe that theme in the real world. 'Would you kindly', but as wildly understood as 'We have always been at war with Eastasia' or 'All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others'.
And not as a joke, a meme or reference to the game, but to describe a concept, a concrete idea, and one more complex than 'level up' or 'extra life' or 'easy mode'.


Image


And here's how I see games that are not art: curtains of the Sistine chapel. Clever, technically challenging, masterpiece, but for the layman less interesting than a painting made with a message.
The games furthest from art are toys, gamified non-game apps, and plotless arcade games. Games where numbers, not words, reward success. They are still games, they can be a blast, but don't take all the other stuff away from my games.
Image

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Ragdollmaster » Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:27 am

Image
I speak only in facts
Hint: When you think you're speaking in objective facts and that your interpretation should be obvious, yet nobody agrees with you, you're talking out your ass. Just stating that you're 'using facts' does nothing to aid the validity of your fallacious argument. Facts are self-apparent and inherently demonstrative.
if gamez r art y r dey censorezd
You... you can't be this stupid. You can't. This is a really long, dedicated troll, right?

I guess I shouldn't underestimate the idiocy of a pre-teen.

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:56 am

A friend just mentioned that some definitions of "art" include a requirement of functionality, which games arguably always have, which might disqualify them as works of art.

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Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:46 pm

Ragdollmaster wrote: Hint: When you think you're speaking in objective facts and that your interpretation should be obvious, yet nobody agrees with you, you're talking out your ass. Just stating that you're 'using facts' does nothing to aid the validity of your fallacious argument. Facts are self-apparent and inherently demonstrative.
>Doesn't recognize a joke

>Calls me stupid.

Oh the hilarity.

You... you can't be this stupid. You can't. This is a really long, dedicated troll, right?

I guess I shouldn't underestimate the idiocy of a pre-teen.
I am genuinely curious. Most actual art isn't censored, nor is works within the same medium simply used for random enjoyment (FTL, Luftrausers and hundreds of others aren't art and instead try to be fun enjoyable experiences).

People have cried out for censorship of what seemed to be "Art" games (Six Days in Fallujah) that had actual messages or told actual stories.

Yet, this doesn't happen (Or gain as much attention) in other mediums.
Endoperez wrote:
On being so bad, buggy and broken everyone got either a free DLC, or a second full game... And publisher trying to hide it by not allowing reviews before release. You know. Stuff that's actually about ethics in games journalism.

http://www.polygon.com/2014/11/11/71934 ... ew-embargo


http://www.polygon.com/2014/11/13/72151 ... in-wake-of
The rest of your post had some ridiculoys things.
Alright, this happened with thousands of other games. Why is this special?

1 - your statements about feminism haven't convinced anyone here. Real convincing, huh?
It wasn't intended to. I don't hold a specific side over the issue and I instead argue how it actually is.
2
So it's not that women should be like men, it's women are exactly like men and there's no choice about that... Eh?
No, it's that women and men play games similarly. Genders don't play the same game differently, they play different genres all together.

Whether you're gay, straight, male or female you'll play the game very similarly. There isn't as much difference between male gamers and female gamers as people think.


3

........ Yes.
That was a fucking joke.

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