Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization.

Anything else
User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:24 am

Now we're talking 'moral subjects'. Do you mean things like "if I just follow orders, am I guilty or is the guilt my commander's"? About stuff like those Bioshock games gave, where player has to choose between good or bad action?

What if a game has built-in marketing, e.g. coca-cola heals you and vw cars are indestructible. Is that still something that doesn't affect scores?

What about aggressive pay-to-win? Moral or gameplay subject.? Can there be a gray area? What to do in that case?

User avatar
Dammasta
Posts: 317
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:15 pm
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow, face down in the dirt.

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Dammasta » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:40 am

Endoperez wrote:Now we're talking 'moral subjects'. Do you mean things like "if I just follow orders, am I guilty or is the guilt my commander's"? About stuff like those Bioshock games gave, where player has to choose between good or bad action?

What if a game has built-in marketing, e.g. coca-cola heals you and vw cars are indestructible. Is that still something that doesn't affect scores?

What about aggressive pay-to-win? Moral or gameplay subject.? Can there be a gray area? What to do in that case?

I wasn't trying to say that, I'm talking about the content inside the game. Bayonetta's over-sexuality is a content issue. Like the game reviewer, many people are made uncomfortable by the over sexualization of female (and sometimes male) characters in video games. I am saying that this game reviewer cannot subtract points for content in the game. That's like taking points off Max Payne 3 for its violence.

A game's review on a game review website is a certain person's personal opinion on how the game looks, works, plays ect. He gives a score on the game based off these things. When he takes points off for something content wise in the game, he lowers the games score for something that everyone who reads the game rating on the back of the box (or even looks at the cover of the game) can tell is in the game by themselves.

While 7.5 isn't that bad of a score, loosing a point for over-sexuality is kinda dumb to me, since anyone who has even glanced at the game can tell that the game is overflowing with it.



In summary, people who don't like over-sexualization aren't going to play Bayonetta. People who don't mind it are going to play it, so taking a point off for that is really pointless (no pun intended).

User avatar
Phoenixwarrior141
Posts: 1433
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:37 pm
Location: I've lost all sense of direction, I'm quite concerned to be honest.

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:14 pm

Ahem.

We internet debating dammit. STOP HAVING A DISCUSSION OVER THERE.







Carry on.

User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:36 pm

Dammasta wrote:A game's review on a game review website is a certain person's personal opinion on how the game looks, works, plays ect. He gives a score on the game based off these things. When he takes points off for something content wise in the game, he lowers the games score for something that everyone who reads the game rating on the back of the box (or even looks at the cover of the game) can tell is in the game by themselves.
I disagree - the review and the score should help me decide me whether I am interested in that game.

Point the first:
Let's look at it this way - what sort of a game should get perfect score?

Is it enough if a game looks good, sounds good, has no bugs, has good gameplay, has a single-player campaign with a good length, and good multiplayer functionality.


Point the second:
I gave quite a bit of thought to how one could make a more objective game review score, and what parts that score would consist of. My conclusion was that the score should reflect the following things:

Is the game FUN (or enjoyable - some good games are too frustrating to be fun)?
Is the game INTERESTING (e.g. can you talk about it with friends)?
Does the game have good PRESENTATION (e.g. visuals, audio, UI design, cinematics etc)?
Does the game have good GAMEPLAY (controls, UI, does it have any problems, etc.)
Is the game POLISHED (no bugs, no problems, servers work fine, etc.)
How does it COMPARE to its competitors (e.g. Torchlight vs Diablo, any MMO vs WoW, or is it something new such as Papers, Please)
What's the game's VALUE (is it worth your money - is it too short, is the price too high, should you wait for a patch and see, whether there's weird Free-To-Play mechanics in it, etc.)

And then the reviewer can subtract any amount for any reasons he wants, as long as he mentions why.

But this is hard. For example, let's look at the comparability part. Should games be reviewed objectively, or contrasted to their competitors? If you review a well-done clone game that has no new mechanics of its own, and similar art style, and is in fact pretty much the same game as the original, should they have the same score? If the score is worse, is it worse because it's all been done before, which would make the game comparable, but less interesting.

Or, what if the game's social aspect was reviewed? But doesn't that skew reviews towards multiplayer games? But if you don't review that, does that mean that a game's community won't show up in the score? Should a good or bad community be shown, when it does affect things such as availability and quality of mods?

Does the score change with the times? Should it? If I review Master of Orion 1 now, should it get the same score as it got in the 90s? Why not? What has changed? What has not changed?

Should price, monetization, pay-to-win affect the score? Or is that something that should be left into the text?

I was thinking of giving MORE weight to fun and interesting games, so that those two values would each be 25% of the final score. So for example, a perfectly made, super interesting game that isn't fun (AAA version of Papers, Please) could be 75 points, or 7½, or about 4 stars. A super intersting and super fun indie game with bad production values would still net 50% from those two values alone. And mediocre games would indeed have a score between 60 and 70, as usual. A game with a score of 30 would be horrible in all aspects.


Point the third

LET'S MAKE A LIST OF WHAT'S IMPORTANT IN A REVIEW!

Whether it's text or score, a list is good.

I'll start:

graphics
sounds
bugs
community
do the servers work
does the game work
is it fun
genre
controls
gameplay
story
characters' personality and likability
art style
how does this compare to the developer's previous games
are there version differences between diff. consoles or PC
is it for kids, casuals, hardcore gamers (target audience)
how's the difficulty
is it going to make you cry
why should I play it
who wants to play it
do you need any peripherals
does it have multiplayer

User avatar
Dammasta
Posts: 317
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:15 pm
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow, face down in the dirt.

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Dammasta » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:53 pm

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm trying to say, sorry if I didn't come off clearly.

I'm not criticizing game review as a whole, I LOVE game reviews, I watch Zero Punctuation and a good many other game reviews. I'm not criticizing the way games are reviewed. I'm criticizing what THIS particular reviewer did for Bayonetta. He played the game, said it was a great game. THAT is what players are looking for when they go into a game review. But, he subtracted points off of this game because of it's over-sexualization. Which frankly, is ridiculous.

Like I said earlier, people who are made uncomfortable by over-sexualization are going to stay faaarrr away from Bayonetta, just glancing at the cover of the game will tell them they will not like it. People who aren't bothered by it are going to watch that review to find out if it is a game worth buying or not, and they don't want the reviewer telling them that it is over-sexualized. They know that.

Should games get review points taken off for their content? That's what I'm getting at, if a game violates a reviewers personal boundaries, is it fair that the game looses points because the reviewer just doesn't like the content of the game? Content problems, like I said earlier, are easily handled by checking the back of the game's case and checking why it is rated what it is.

It is the game reviewer's job to talk about the game, tell you about the aspects, show them what the game looks like, and how it feels. They give their rating based on those things (exactly what you said).
They should not base the score around the content of the game. Otherwise GTA, Max Payne, Call of Duty, Mass Effect, Watch Dogs, they could all have their scores lowered because of their mature content.

I completely agree with everything you said. Yes, that is how a good game review should be made. But that wasn't my point.


(yay for the longest post I've ever typed!)

User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:32 pm

Dammasta wrote:I think you're misunderstanding what I'm trying to say, sorry if I didn't come off clearly.

I'm not criticizing game review as a whole, I LOVE game reviews, I watch Zero Punctuation and a good many other game reviews. I'm not criticizing the way games are reviewed. I'm criticizing what THIS particular reviewer did for Bayonetta. He played the game, said it was a great game. THAT is what players are looking for when they go into a game review. But, he subtracted points off of this game because of it's over-sexualization. Which frankly, is ridiculous.

I completely agree with everything you said. Yes, that is how a good game review should be made. But that wasn't my point.
I want a discussion, instead of stating things and having people agree with them.

I know that you think talking about over-sexualization is ridiculous. I don't think that way. So I'm trying to find out where, and how, we can find the line where "acceptable" tips into "unacceptable".

In the very example you agree with, the sexualization would lower the interest rating, because the reviewer finds that some parts in the game detract from the fun, and the gameplay, and the visuals.

We probably can't agree on sexualization if we just talk about that, so I'd rather we talked about what makes a good review, and maybe that'd help us find the reasons for our disagreement, and then we can change the formula.

And, you know, if it's good enough, it just needs a website and some server space to actually start working. It could easily become a thesis. A better way to review a game, statistics collected from a set of people reviewing games and comparing those to actual reviews on magazines, even having journalists use that tool and give their feedback.


And you know what I find the most ironic about all this?

This thread right here is what a discussion on journalistic integrity should look like.
This is how you discuss the merits of game reviews.
For some reason there has been very little of this in recent times, considering.

User avatar
Dammasta
Posts: 317
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:15 pm
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow, face down in the dirt.

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Dammasta » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:41 pm

Endoperez wrote:
In the very example you agree with, the sexualization would lower the interest rating, because the reviewer finds that some parts in the game detract from the fun, and the gameplay, and the visuals.

Ahhh, now I see what you're saying and where you were getting at, forgive me for not recognizing that in your earlier post.

The problem with Beyonetta, is that it's geared towards an specific audience. I feel that the developers alienated potential audiences by making their protagonist overly sexualized.

The reviewer of Beyonetta was reviewing the game for everyone, but unfortunately, only Beyonetta's fan base or target audience are going to be interested in the game, I highly doubt anyone who is against over-sexualization will watch the review for that game for that reason. Which was why I thought that saying it was over-sexual was pointless.

But I guess you are also right, reviewers are more supposed to gear their reviews towards everyone, instead of just a target audience.

Maybe the problem isn't the reviewer, but the developers for making their character so sexual?
They may have opened up the doors for a bigger audience if they had not made her so sensual.


But, that also brings up the problem of what is acceptable to put into games, and rather that should effect their score in a game review or not.

User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:24 pm

Dammasta wrote:The reviewer of Beyonetta was reviewing the game for everyone, but unfortunately, only Beyonetta's fan base or target audience are going to be interested in the game, I highly doubt anyone who is against over-sexualization will watch the review for that game for that reason. Which was why I thought that saying it was over-sexual was pointless.
You'll have a hard time finding anyone more vocally and visibly against over-sexualization in games than Anita Sarkeesian, and you know what she has to say about that?

"t's entirely possible to be critical of some aspects of a piece of media, while still finding other parts valuable or enjoyable."

Or:

"For the record, as soon as we can settle down I'm probably gonna buy Bayonetta 2 (though we may frequently eyeroll) because PLATINUM BRAWLER"
https://twitter.com/alexlifschitz/statu ... 8723694593
The "we" in that tweet refers to Zoe Quinn and her boyfriend, the tweeter.

So yeah, some people critical of the sexism will still play it, and might want to read reviews like Polygon's where the sexism is discussed.

They'll most probably be interested in playing PLATINUM BRAWLERS with female protagonists who are strong but not sexualized, and thankfully there's a Legend of Korra game coming from Platinum games. We'll have to wait and see how it does... I'm not sure if the younged audience will be interested, but fans of the original series who now play games might end up being very interested in that one. Heh, it'd be funny (and sad) if the series continued on as a game franchise only...

But I guess you are also right, reviewers are more supposed to gear their reviews towards everyone, instead of just a target audience.


If a review targets everyone, does it mean that it's biased away from fringe groups?
That's actually an interesting question.


Maybe the problem isn't the reviewer, but the developers for making their character so sexual?
They may have opened up the doors for a bigger audience if they had not made her so sensual.


I found a great article today that explains why game companies and especially marketing constantly alienates women, on purpose.

http://howtonotsuckatgamedesign.com/201 ... le-geek-2/

Basically, if 100$ of marketing affects 80% of men and 10% of women, you want to spend all 100$ on marketing towards men and none on marketing towards women. Then, because only men buy the product, you design it to cater to that market, or a specific subgroup in that market. Then, to get the most money out of your marketing budget, you analyze your target audience and leave out the ones the buy the least. Then, because only men under the age of 25 buy your game... etc.

Quite a vicious curve, with no easy answers in sight besides new games or even genres being born. MineCraft, Nintendo's kid-friendly inkblot-FPS, Gone Home, stuff like that. New products can try to reach new audiences more easily, as is explained at the end of the article.

User avatar
Dammasta
Posts: 317
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:15 pm
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow, face down in the dirt.

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Dammasta » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:42 pm

I really have nothing else to add, very well said. I really can't think of anything else to mention or question at this moment, (though I might in about a day or so when I've had time to think about it). Well done. *bows*

EDIT: I thought of something,
Endoperez wrote:
I found a great article today that explains why game companies and especially marketing constantly alienates women, on purpose.

http://howtonotsuckatgamedesign.com/201 ... le-geek-2/

Basically, if 100$ of marketing affects 80% of men and 10% of women, you want to spend all 100$ on marketing towards men and none on marketing towards women. Then, because only men buy the product, you design it to cater to that market, or a specific subgroup in that market. Then, to get the most money out of your marketing budget, you analyze your target audience and leave out the ones the buy the least. Then, because only men under the age of 25 buy your game... etc.

Quite a vicious curve, with no easy answers in sight besides new games or even genres being born. MineCraft, Nintendo's kid-friendly inkblot-FPS, Gone Home, stuff like that. New products can try to reach new audiences more easily, as is explained at the end of the article.

So, seeing this raised a question for me, "Do boobs attract buyers?" Would having a not as sexualized character really harm the consumer base of the game? I think that, if you have a game with great gameplay, great story, and great graphics, you won't have a very hard time finding many potential buyers in both the male and female circles.

It seems like having an overly sexual character is kind of like a fall back to get as many men to buy your game as possible, when maybe you should try to make your game better in other aspects to attract both males and females? I highly doubt a lot of men are going to turn down a well made game, rather it has a sexual protagonist or not.
Having a sexual protagonist may put off a lot of female gamers, (a market that is widely becoming more popular) so maybe it's time games start gearing more towards them as well?

User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:20 pm

Dammasta wrote:So, seeing this raised a question for me, "Do boobs attract buyers?" Would having a not as sexualized character really harm the consumer base of the game? I think that, if you have a game with great gameplay, great story, and great graphics, you won't have a very hard time finding many potential buyers in both the male and female circles.

It seems like having an overly sexual character is kind of like a fall back to get as many men to buy your game as possible, when maybe you should try to make your game better in other aspects to attract both males and females? I highly doubt a lot of men are going to turn down a well made game, rather it has a sexual protagonist or not.
Having a sexual protagonist may put off a lot of female gamers, (a market that is widely becoming more popular) so maybe it's time games start gearing more towards them as well?
That's my opinion too, and I'd like to try that out at some point. I'm not a character artist ATM tho, I've mostly worked on environments.

Of course, asking anyone to change existing art style to fit this design philosophy has been met with vehement opposition (Sejuani from League of Legends, Divinity: Original Sin character artist, and more).

Again, that Nintendo ink gun shooter thingy could be huge, if it gets popular among kids. Imagine if Halo had been played by kids few years younger, but of both genders? And knowing Nintendo, there's probably some sort of local multiplayer. That'd be fantastic.

User avatar
Phoenixwarrior141
Posts: 1433
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:37 pm
Location: I've lost all sense of direction, I'm quite concerned to be honest.

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:17 pm

Something unrelated:

I'm quickly realizing that Extra Credits is SJW as fuck.

/somethingunrelated

User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:55 pm

Speaking of game reviews and ethics, I heard a rumour that Bethesda hasn't been giving review copies based on what scores their previous games have received at various sites.

http://www.videogamer.com/reviews/the_e ... eview.html
"As Bethesda declined to send us a review copy of the game (presumably due to the score we gave Wolfenstein: The New Order) we bought our own copy."

Destructoid had trouble obtaining a review copy, reason isn't mentioned.
http://www.destructoid.com/where-s-our- ... 2467.phtml


Has anyone heard anyone protesting that? Any person researching this in the name of ethics and better games journalism? Any articles looking into it? I've heard there's this group of people looking into these things, maybe they've found something?

User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Endoperez » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:11 pm

Also this just in; and htis is HUGE!

There's a group, nay, a CONSPIRACY, a secret collaboration of likeminded people, trying to destroy the ethics of game reviews! They're trying to ruin the sanctity and integrity of games press and force the reviewers to write only what is beneficial for the publishers, or else they will be denied the review copies.

I repeat, this group is trying to encourage publishers to control what sorts of reviews are given for their games.
[+] PROOF
Image
INSIDIOUS! Does anyone know who started this so we can report them to, I dunno, some group of people who are interested in these things?

User avatar
Grayswandir
Short end of the stick
Posts: 3655
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 12:37 am
Location: Robbing the cradle.

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Grayswandir » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:39 pm

On one hand I think its within the rights of a company to withhold early copies if they think that certain reviewers have a "bias" against their company or whatnot. On the other hand it also immediately raises a red flag and makes the publisher look like they don't trust the product they are releasing for public consumption. But hey, yeah, if they want to limit who gets early-access for a game review, go ahead, but they also have to be aware of the consequences. People aren't stupid, keeping people from reviewing a game before release can look pretty bad.

User avatar
Glabbit
Posts: 4917
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:38 am
Location: A mile away, with your shoes!

Re: Polygon gives Beyonetta 2 a 7.5 because of sexualization

Post by Glabbit » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:55 am

Damn politics!

*shakes fist at unreasonable people in general*

Post Reply