Hatred: The Game From God

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Retarded Username
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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Retarded Username » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:35 am

"Go fuck yourself"
I used the word 'fuck', aw yeah, they will respect my awesomeness now!
And Hatred is going to shoot them all up and pistol whip the remains. I'm so badass and edgy. Gamers should be doing the same thing.

But nope, all games need a message. All. Even though Endo gave arkanoid and pong as examples.
And watching them get shot up like the millions of cops in Hatred will be just as exciting. I'm so edgy.

It'll be a nice dose of reality for those who follow them.
I cried at the end of Finding Nemo.

"You're eyes are opening for the first time.

It hurts doesn't it?"
Does nobody else cringe a bit when reading this guy's posts?

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Endoperez
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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Endoperez » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:47 am

Retarded Username wrote:
Does nobody else cringe a bit when reading this guy's posts?
Not for the grammar.

Edit:Oh, and I laughed at this, so thanks!
Even though Endo gave arkanoid and pong as examples.
Also Towerfall. I'm sure I could find an actual art game without plot! Oh hey Graveyard fits the bill! That took at most five seconds!
Last edited by Endoperez on Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Endoperez » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:02 am

Re: greed

I still don't know if publishing this game would be good or bad. However, I do know that offering mod support for it would be catastrophic, and that people in its forums are so far gone their discussions are, at worst, outright illegal. Obviously I'm talking about requests to make real people into virtual murder dolls and the discussions about how these people would like to kill them.

Making money from the idea that murder is entertainment feels iffy.

Re: devs

Yes you said that, I got it and I agree. I didn't say that, though. I said something different. Repeating your opinion on that thing I agree with but didn't talk about isn't relevant to what I did say.

Re: artsy caricatures are real!

STOP RIGHT THERE.

You said they exist. I said they don't. Unless someone brings in proof that they exist we are at an impasse.

Re: new genres of games should be destroyed

Why are you against new and different games? :(
I'm excited at games being more varied.
You are excited about games being LESS varied...

If you are right, games can't be used to tell stories unless there's action. That would be horrible! Thete's more stories without action than with! It's like finding out games really are the ugly duckling, that they can never be as beautiful as I hoped for... How is that a good thing?

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:26 am

Retarded Username wrote:
"Go fuck yourself"
I used the word 'fuck', aw yeah, they will respect my awesomeness now!
And Hatred is going to shoot them all up and pistol whip the remains. I'm so badass and edgy. Gamers should be doing the same thing.

But nope, all games need a message. All. Even though Endo gave arkanoid and pong as examples.
And watching them get shot up like the millions of cops in Hatred will be just as exciting. I'm so edgy.

It'll be a nice dose of reality for those who follow them.
I cried at the end of Finding Nemo.

"You're eyes are opening for the first time.

It hurts doesn't it?"
Does nobody else cringe a bit when reading this guy's posts?
My bad, had a horrible night yesterday (Slept at 4AM, woke up at 3PM).

Ignoring the topic of my scattered thoughts further...
Endoperez wrote:Re: greed

I still don't know if publishing this game would be good or bad. However, I do know that offering mod support for it woyld be catadtrophic, and that people in its forums are so far gone their discussions are, at worst, outright illegal.

Making money from the idea that murder is entertainment feels iffy.
UE4 allows modding if you have the engine.

Ouch.

Re: artsy caricatures are real!

STOP RIGHT THERE.

You said they exist. I said they don't. Unless someone brings in proof that they exist we are at an impasse.
Read the comments section of the video I linked in the OP. The comments I quoted specifically.
Those should be proof enough.
Re: new genres of games should be destroyed

Why are you against new and different games? :(
Because we could push the boundaries of what we currently have (Indie titles exist and are doing this as we speak), and be better for it. OR, we could say "Fuck game design" and pour all our time into philosophical bits or plot and characters, in full knowledge the people who play the game will make it immune to any criticism and games journalists will love it to death.
Yes, this is all from the This War of Mine forums.
Gone Home is just as bad.
Depression Quest is far worse.
I'm excited at games being more varied.
They're not. Art games that exist are either lacking in gameplay or use the gameplay of other genres. There is nothing interesting about these titles in terms of what sells a game to me: Gameplay.

To specify (Because I'm that sort of person): I like games with gameplay where there are emergent stories from that gameplay. Endwar does this PERFECTLY.
You are excited about games being LESS varied...
There are oceans of indie games out there. There is something out there you'll like. Games aren't becoming less varied. I'm not ruling already existent genres (Despite the glaring flaws they may have) to suit my tastes, nor do I care.

If you are right, games can't be used to tell stories unless there's action.
Wrong. There needs to be actual gameplay to tell stories. People don't need to take the path of least resistance all the time.
That would be horrible! Thete's more stories without action than with! It's like finding out games really are the ugly duckling, that they can never be as beautiful as I hoped for... How is that a good thing?
1: Define stories. If it's any story then:
Every CoD game
Every Battlefield game
Every Medal of Honor game
Every Army of Two game
Every Batman game
Every Total War game
Every Just Cause game
Both Postal games
Both Space Hulk games
Every Dawn of War game

all count with action.

Compared to:
Gone Home
Dear Esther
Depression Quest.

The difference? The first set of games I could have some fun with.

Pretty big difference.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Endoperez » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:53 am

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote: 1: Define stories. If it's any story then:
Every CoD game
Every Battlefield game
Every Medal of Honor game
Every Army of Two game
Every Batman game
Every Total War game
Every Just Cause game
Both Postal games
Both Space Hulk games
Every Dawn of War game

all count with action.

Compared to:
Gone Home
Dear Esther
Depression Quest.

The difference? The first set of games I could have some fun with.

Pretty big difference.
Compare games to books, movies, music, theatre and folklore.

Where are the stories that are not about a hero saving the day?

My point was that games might be limited to flashy stories with lots of action, and you don't seem to argue against it... Dovyou then think games are worse and/or less versatile at telling stories?

I mean, ok, Star Wars is nice, but every movie doesn't need to be that. Where's the games like Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell, a fantastic book, or like Titanic, the movie? Why are games about parent-child relationship so rare? What is there besides the awesome Last of Us, also violent?


Other stuff:

Re: modding

YES, exactly. Whoever sells that game will most likely face the problem of real people being sent personalized videos where they are repeatedly killed, using Hatred to record them. I mean, it's already happening with GTA V bids, but at least those don't to my knowledge have their real faces...

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Endoperez » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:06 am

I'm in the process of reading through all the comments to a video Phoenix posted to the OP. There's no mention of art games so far.
will mills wrote:How would this game be fun? I mean unless it turns into a gun battle with the cops, in which it really isn't that different than GTA, there is no way just murdering people who can't fight back will be entertaining for more than about 15 minutes. 
Not gonna quote more stuff most likely, but that's about as harsh as the critique I've seen so far goes.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Endoperez » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:34 am

I just finished reading through all the 700+ comments to Matt's video about Hatred. I found one comment that could be interpreted as outright request to ban or destroy the game.
Shadowtechnik

We cannot support this game at all! (As cool as it looks)


Then again the poster replied to his own post like this, making clear he was worried about what it'd say about GamerGate, not about Hatred specifically.
Shadowtechnik
#gamergate #notyourshield
It was very boring. I might have missed something, but I did my best to prove your point.

I just wasted half an hour looking for evidence you claimed was there, that wasn't. Phoenix, what the fuck? Did you lie or what?

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by TheSlider » Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:57 am

Endoperez wrote:
TheSlider wrote:Video games (or interactive software to be more inclusive) are an extraordinary medium that can be used to convey much more than any other medium out there.
I disagree. Games have more interaction between the work and the player. This results in more interpretation. This means that games as a medium are worse at exactly and precisely describing the author's intention, but better at creating a subjective experience.

That means games convey in a different, but not superior, way. Is more focus on the subjective interpretations 'much more', when it comes as a loss in the objective interpretations?
I did say much more, not superior although this is debatable as anyone can get anything from any other medium as well. In any medium, "Getting the authors intention" is not necessary to appreciate anything or to feel anything. You can disagree as much as you like, it won't make it any less true. Also, objective interpretations is not what you're looking for when experiencing any medium. You want to get something personal from it and talk about it with others, expand and share.
Endoperez wrote: As for Hatred... Yes, Hatred could be framed that way. It would make it more interesting. The developers say that it's pure entertainment without any philosophy, though. When you say that, how can any encouragment of interpreting the game's message be anything but lip service? How can murder as entertainment be compared to murder the crime, and should it?
[...]
You didn't get my point (or read through ?). I expressed and talked all the way about emotions and emotions only. Not authors intentions but what you might get from running this game and why we can't feel these "bad" emotions in other mass shooting games when it should/could be the case. Watching the trailer was enough for me to start feeling terrible, so i wonder, could it be possible while playing and actively shooting to feel this too ?
Games that try to tackle these subjects like Spec Ops, do it by intention and narrative but what if you as a player could "get it" by interaction ?

Can you think of a way to convey the emotions I talked about like loathing, disgust or even remorse in a game like Call of Duty for example ?
How could devs make us players feel bad for pulling the trigger on so much npcs ?
How can they make us regret or feel terrible for "killing" an npc even if it's not voluntary ?

I believe this would be educational in some sense but it seems this forum doesn't turn out to be open minded as these comments have shown. :S

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Endoperez » Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:24 am

TheSlider wrote: I did say much more, not superior although this is debatable as anyone can get anything from any other medium as well. In any medium, "Getting the authors intention" is not necessary to appreciate anything or to feel anything. You can disagree as much as you like, it won't make it any less true. Also, objective interpretations is not what you're looking for when experiencing any medium. You want to get something personal from it and talk about it with others, expand and share.
We can't measure the quantity and quality of emotional output. I believe that the only way to get more out of a work of art or fiction is for the work to be better, at least for you.

I agree that the author's intention isn't the only thing that matters. Gamers can exchange their own personal experiences of different events, instead of discussing interpretations of identical scenes from the film.

However, I believe the author's intention will color the experiences and interpretations, assuming the author knows his craft. Destructive Entertainment seem to be good at what they do - they've got fantastic PR machine for one! If their message is that murder is entertainment and pure fun with no introspection required, that will influence the game design.

So again, author does not have the final say, but he influences it.
You didn't get my point (or read through ?). I expressed and talked all the way about emotions and emotions only. Not authors intentions but what you might get from running this game and why we can't feel these "bad" emotions in other mass shooting games when it should/could be the case. Watching the trailer was enough for me to start feeling terrible, so i wonder, could it be possible while playing and actively shooting to feel this too ?
Games that try to tackle these subjects like Spec Ops, do it by intention and narrative but what if you as a player could "get it" by interaction ?
Sorry if I didn't express it well, but I agree with you. Hatred might be a great tool for introspection, emotions and so on. I will not play it because it's way beyond my comfort zone.

I speak against it because it seems to try to intentionally avoid all that. Again, 'pure entertainment' without 'any fake philosophy'. If the player isn't entertained but instead becomes introspective, the developers have failed their own stated goals! Will they try to patch the game to remove bugs like accidental feelings of compassion?

I hope the devs have a point and I'm not misinterpreting them. It seems dire.

Can you think of a way to convey the emotions I talked about like loathing, disgust or even remorse in a game like Call of Duty for example ?
How could devs make us players feel bad for pulling the trigger on so much npcs ?

No, CoD can't do this. However, I believe the author's intention will affect the player's subjective information, so that when a developer doesn't care, various mechanical choices make it more likely for the player to not care either.

In other words, Hatred as is will do a worse job than the hypothetical Hatred that embraced the goal of exploring human emotions.

IJI is a simple game where violence was framed in such a way that the player was encouraged to feel remorse. Enemies grew afraid, you found their journals, etc.

Self-loathing and self-disgust I can't remember having seen. More often, a villain is painted as one by destroying something the player is encouraged to feel an emotional connection towards. Destroying the Companion Cube is kinda like that, but the box didn't really bring forth any emotions in me, so it didn't work in my case.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by TheSlider » Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:50 am

I understand your view.

About "a game like CoD", I was thinking about any FPS or shooter in general where you kill by dozens without thinking, and wondering if you had an idea of how you would make it so that the player (if not the character) could think about these kills and care.

I Pretty much know that the average FPS of today is no different than the ones from 10-20 years ago. The same mechanics are used to show the npcs you just shot drop in a rag doll state and then disappear in a handwave.

I wonder why devs don't try nowadays to portray more poignant deaths like npcs screaming in pain while they bleed out. Crippled ones dragging their bodies a few meters away and being afraid to be finished and probably crying, telling you they have a family or they didn't want to but were forced to, etc...
Why do we choose to make and play games where killing, which is probably the worst thing to do to another animal or human beeing (apart maybe torture), isn't something to be thought about ?

Because ultimately, choice is something that is given to the player in this medium so deciding on what to do to the next npc is relevant and something worth exploring as a personal experience.

I'll try out IJI if i get the chance. Sounds interesting.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Endoperez » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:54 am

I asked my game designer friend. Short answer: killing isn't the point, so it isn't emphasized. 'Death' is just a symbol, a context to the game mechanic, something that very clearly says that the character in question is out of the game and no longer important as far as game mechanics are involved.

It's not about violence except at the most base level. Cops and robbers also has 'death' as an 'out of game' state.

Why death? People will instantly understand the repercussions. You can't act anymore, you can't do anything, it's over.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:57 pm

Endoperez wrote:I just finished reading through all the 700+ comments to Matt's video about Hatred. I found one comment that could be interpreted as outright request to ban or destroy the game.
Shadowtechnik

We cannot support this game at all! (As cool as it looks)


Then again the poster replied to his own post like this, making clear he was worried about what it'd say about GamerGate, not about Hatred specifically.
Shadowtechnik
#gamergate #notyourshield
It was very boring. I might have missed something, but I did my best to prove your point.

I just wasted half an hour looking for evidence you claimed was there, that wasn't. Phoenix, what the fuck? Did you lie or what?
Here's a few (And this took me a few minutes)
I suspect this game allows you to go into the mindset of someone that crazy and to make you take a few steps back and think on these kinds of actions. If it's done right it will serve to highlight the horrible deeds mass killers have done and hopefully give you the sense of revoltion at those acts. Similar to how Spec Ops: The Line deconstructed the first person shooter and had you confront the realities of PTSD.

This this the strength of the video game medium. It's also what a subset of gamers want from their games. Games that make you think. View different perspectives and gain understanding of others, both good and bad.
There's one. If one of the better pretentious prick heads.

And a few comments responding to:
I don't see how this game is different from call of duty, you do the same things kill people.
Responses including:
I suggest you go see a shrink then
Because at least in COD they try and give you justifiable reasons to go and kill people. This game is just saying "Go on a rampage and kill people as brutally as you can even as they scream and beg for mercy".

There's a significant difference.
That one may not count, but it's worth mentioning.

Where the OP came from:

It looks so fucking tasteless, it's just shock for shock value, no message or story other than some fucking cutter with dumb hair and a stupid coat.
Nope.
Ouch, that proves my point.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Endoperez » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:46 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:
I suspect this game allows you to go into the mindset of someone that crazy and to make you take a few steps back and think on these kinds of actions. If it's done right it will serve to highlight the horrible deeds mass killers have done and hopefully give you the sense of revoltion at those acts. Similar to how Spec Ops: The Line deconstructed the first person shooter and had you confront the realities of PTSD.
This this the strength of the video game medium. It's also what a subset of gamers want from their games. Games that make you think. View different perspectives and gain understanding of others, both good and bad.
It looks so fucking tasteless, it's just shock for shock value, no message or story other than some fucking cutter with dumb hair and a stupid coat.
Nope.
Ouch, that proves my point.
This is your point:
Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:You misinterpreted me again. I meant that the pretentious gamers want games that aren't artsy and meaningful to be destroyed because they aren't.
Image

You still haven't given me a single example of a pretentious person who wants to destroy video games that aren't "pretentious enough".

You gave me examples of people who talk about video games. Talking is alright. We do it right here! What about the destruction? Who destroys them, where? How?

By saying "Nope"?
Last edited by Endoperez on Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Ragdollmaster » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:47 pm

Oh, Phoenix is still an idiot?

In other news, North Korea is crazy and Russia is invading Ukraine in the most passive aggressive way I can think of.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:43 pm

Ragdollmaster wrote:Oh, Phoenix is still an idiot?

In other news, North Korea is crazy and Russia is invading Ukraine in the most passive aggressive way I can think of.
Are you only just figuring this out?
Endoperez wrote:
This is your point:
Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:You misinterpreted me again. I meant that the pretentious gamers want games that aren't artsy and meaningful to be destroyed because they aren't.
You still haven't given me a single example of a pretentious person who wants to destroy video games that aren't "pretentious enough".
Alright, here's a good example:

Extra Credits.



You gave me examples of people who talk about video games. Talking is alright. We do it right here! What about the destruction? Who destroys them, where? How?

By saying "Nope"?
You missed what I tried to say. I didn't mean that they were destroying games that aren't art. I meant that they think all games should be "Art" in one way or another. Or that all games ARE art one way or another.

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