Hatred: The Game From God

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Phoenixwarrior141
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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:34 am

Endoperez wrote:I see now, I think.

You seem to have defined evil like so:

'A game is evil if a human character dies in it.'

That happens in several games. They should all be evil.

I disagree with your definition of evil.
Close. So very close.
I was saying this:

"CoD and Hatred depict similar acts of violence against similar people, yet only one of them is considered evil. If Hatred is evil, CoD is too."

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Endoperez
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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Endoperez » Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:49 am

Hatred depicts a person shooting, executing, a crying, helpless person in a close-up. That is a type of violence not shown in CoD afaik

Hatred has you kill humans who represent normal people and are afraid of you and try to create an illusion of a normal human.
CoD has you kill humans who represent faceless bad guys and are trying to kill you. Do they ever express fear? Anything but anger?

Since the acts are different, and targets are different, I disagree.

I agree that other games that are closer to Hatred would be evil under your definition, but it's not my definition, so I might disagree with a game that's as violent as Hatred but different. For example, GTA V had a torture scene and you hurt normal, innocent people. I haven't played or looked into it further though, so I don't know what sorts of things one can enjoy in it. Hidden secrets, tricks to do, things to find, etc... If it's not just a torture and death simulator, it's not evil because it's a tool for more than just evil.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:00 pm

Endoperez wrote:Hatred depicts a person shooting, executing, a crying, helpless person in a close-up. That is a type of violence not shown in CoD afaik
But in Hatred it's also just the executions, nothing else. The newer CoDs had executions with knives, and no one cared.

Hatred has you kill humans who represent normal people and are afraid of you and try to create an illusion of a normal human.
CoD has you kill humans who represent faceless bad guys and are trying to kill you. Do they ever express fear? Anything but anger?
Do the civilians in Hatred express anything BUT fear?
The civilians in Hatred are like the "Faceless bad guys" in CoD. Faceless targets running down the street. Nothing else.

And my point was that you're still killing humans. The fact they represent other people means little.
Since the acts are different, and targets are different, I disagree.
That's an odd position.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by EPR89 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:52 pm

So you really see no difference between executing a helpless civilian and killing an enemy in a way that doesn't give him an opportunity to react?

A knife kill from behind is for you the same thing as cutting a helpless, begging character's throat?

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Ragdollmaster » Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:01 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:And my point was that you're still killing humans. The fact they represent other people means little.
In other words, killing someone, no matter who they are, no matter what they've done, and no matter who the killer is, is the same thing. Genocides are no different than murder through self defense.

Image
Last edited by Ragdollmaster on Mon Dec 29, 2014 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Endoperez » Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:24 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:
And my point was that you're still killing humans. The fact they represent other people means little.
Since the acts are different, and targets are different, I disagree.
That's an odd position.
You said:
"If X and Y are the same, then if X is Z then both must be Z."

I said:
"X and Y are different, so even if X is Z, that does not tell us what Y is."

How is this odd?



I've spent hours explaining why context, and how characters are represented, matters. You counter this by saying the AI characters are simple and look like humans, but keep ignoring my argument about context.

Why do you think the fact that characters are humans matters more than context?

The context matters more than their humanity. A well-made game could make a person sad over the death of an ant, or a cube, or a bird. A context can make a human NPC completely meaningless and ignorable.

Context > human form

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:28 am

EPR89 wrote:So you really see no difference between executing a helpless civilian and killing an enemy in a way that doesn't give him an opportunity to react?
Yes and no.
Yes, I (As a person) see differences between the two.
No, (Pseudo-Philosophically) because they're both human beings. The differences are in context, but I'm ignoring context for the sake of argumentation.

A knife kill from behind is for you the same thing as cutting a helpless, begging character's throat?
See above.
Ragdollmaster wrote:
In other words, killing someone, no matter who they are, no matter what they've done, and no matter who the killer is, is the same thing.
By this logic, Hatred isn't evil and neither is CoD. We aren't given any backstory on the victims so they could be Nazis for all we know. So no harm done.
Genocides are no different than murder through self defense.
Not in the slightest. In CoD you don't kill in self defense. In Black Ops you kill metric shit tons of people during one level, and shortly after it in a cutscene. Zero fucks are given. Always on the offensive.

Why is the senseless murder of Russians not evil (Unless the entire world is made of Dota2 players, in which case I guess it's okay)? But the senseless murder of civilians is?

Edit: Word problem.
Last edited by Phoenixwarrior141 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Endoperez » Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:54 am

Nice rebuttals!

As I said once before, If I accepted your premises I'd agree with you. I just don't see any point in arguing without context, since the actions we speak of only exist in the context of the game.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:25 am

Endoperez wrote:Nice rebuttals!

As I said once before, If I accepted your premises I'd agree with you. I just don't see any point in arguing without context, since the actions we speak of only exist in the context of the game.
I'm not arguing context because it would go nowhere, and kinda ignore the point I'm trying to make.

That point being:

"Call of Duty isn't considered evil even though you commit similar acts to that in Hatred. You kill mass amounts of humans in both games, quite a lot as a matter of fact, yet Hatred isn't consider evil. We shouldn't think something is evil, because we do similar acts in different games. The context means little when all is said and done, since someone is still dead."

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by EPR89 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:33 am

I don't see a point in arguing about this stuff if you ignore context.
These sort of issues are defined by the context they happen in. It's the same in real life. There are multiple different legal outcomes to the killing of a human and the difference is all about context. If we ignored that, we'd end up with situations like having to sentence every soldier who killed someone in a firefight for murder. The context is what makes images like the one in Hatred problematic (not inherently wrong and definitely not inherently unacceptable).
By taking that point out you are simplifying the situation so much that there is no point in talking about it. You are the only one who doesn't consider context as a main factor here. There is no objective truth to this discussion. If you try to create one artificially by excluding points that are important for every other view related to the issue, you achieve nothing, aside from some mental exercise for yourself and no one else.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Endoperez » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:17 am

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote: "Call of Duty isn't considered evil
Who doesn't consider CoD evil?
IMO it's the people who take it in context. They do the considering. Because the people who do otherwise seem to once more be as common as the unicorns they ride.

If you can find an example of anyone saying CoD is evil because all killing is evil, regardless of (virtual) context, I'll accept that there's a point in your way of thinking.

If you can't provide one, I'll assume that you've been arguing against an opinion no one holds, defends or agrees with. Tilting at windmills, missing the point, not seeing the forest for the trees...

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by EPR89 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:17 pm

The only situation I remember where people had a problem with CoD in regards to moral values was the airport level in Modern Warfare 2, "No Russian".

The reason: entirely context. The player was commanded to shoot unarmed, defenseless civilians.

The whole thing is pretty graphic.


The difference to Hatred is that here the violence at least has the purpose to deepen the story.

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:22 pm

Polygon logic:
Someone makes a game about mass shooting.
Check how diverse the victims are.
Image

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by rodeje25 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:03 pm

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Re: Hatred: The Game From God

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:55 pm

Saw that. I agree.

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