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So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Phoenixwarrior141 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:43 pm

Endoperez wrote:Ah, yes, feel free to ignore the question re: ARE YOU A BULLY to answer my mostly-rhetorical question. You have proved you have not reached the bottom, but still, why did you feel the need to bully the people who create your hobby?

Because I didn't. I insulted (Not bully, only insult) one developer. No one else should be offended by that and if they are they should.

Anita is an exceptionally strong woman. You can't expect everyone to be as strong as she is, to be as good at withstanding harassment.

Meaning: Ignore it.


The fact that she can carry on doesn't mean these people have no effect, or that you are able to ignore them. It's really, unbelievably, horribly bad.

Right, she can carry on and make tons of money, get tons of outside of gaming support and gamer support from poser gamers who just wanna be gamers because it's popular, and put a smile on her face.

But SHE'S the victim.


Words can absolutely hurt people, no question.

Yes, but online posts you can ignore don't.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby EPR89 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:03 pm

I really hope that you read through all these posts and threads in about five years again.
By now I am convinced that you are just too young to understand the problems with these issues because you can't emphasize with people who are not you.


Talking with you about it is absolutely hopeless. Complete waste of time. You don't care about anything anyone else brings to the discussion. All you do is voice your opinion and then repeat it over and over and over again.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Ragdollmaster » Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:11 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:
Endoperez wrote:
Words can absolutely hurt people, no question.

Yes, but online posts you can ignore don't.


"Just ignore it because it's online"

No, stop. Just stop.It's not even a matter of opinion. You are objectively incorrect and if you refuse to accept what experts in the field- who are all without a doubt much smarter than someone who is still in school- have concluded after years of study, you're just stupid. There's really no way around it. It's not any different from some backwoods redneck not believing in evolution or climate change despite mountains of evidence.

As usual, someone who thinks he's got everything figured out when he probably doesn't even know how to drive. I bet you think your parents are idiots and don't know anything, too, huh?

What sadly one-dimensional views supported by biased personal anecdotes and regurgitated red-pill mantras. Phoenix, you don't surprise, but you do disappoint.

EPR89 wrote:I really hope that you read through all these posts and threads in about five years again.
By now I am convinced that you are just too young to understand the problems with these issues because you can't emphasize with people who are not you.


Talking with you about it is absolutely hopeless. Complete waste of time. You don't care about anything anyone else brings to the discussion. All you do is voice your opinion and then repeat it over and over and over again.


Bingo. Dogmatic, immature, personal, and quick to accept what already falls in line with his limited worldview. Trademarks of adolescence. He'll be facepalming once he's got some hair on his chest.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby EPR89 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:26 pm

One thing I would like to point out is that the issues surrounding Paranautical Activity and Valve is in my opinion not an issue about bullying. It's an issue about someone insulting his business partners with incredibly offensive language that made it absolutely unacceptable for the company to associate themselves with him and his product.

The stuff that guy wrote is what I would expect a twelve year old to come up with when his internet connection craps out during a game he has been waiting for all day. And the fact that he doesn't seem to understand just what he did wrong doesn't help either. He somehow seems to think that he is the victim.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Endoperez » Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:42 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:
Endoperez wrote:Ah, yes, feel free to ignore the question re: ARE YOU A BULLY to answer my mostly-rhetorical question. You have proved you have not reached the bottom, but still, why did you feel the need to bully the people who create your hobby?

Because I didn't. I insulted (Not bully, only insult) one developer. No one else should be offended by that and if they are they should.


You basically implied "developers are weak nerds", and then say I shouldn't be offended. Why should I have to first listen you insult me, and then have you tell me how I should react?

Anita is an exceptionally strong woman. You can't expect everyone to be as strong as she is, to be as good at withstanding harassment.

Meaning: Ignore it.


Yes, in that you can't expect everyone to ignore the harassment. People can only withstand so much before giving up, or breaking down. Which is why these things should not be allowed to continue.


The fact that she can carry on doesn't mean these people have no effect, or that you are able to ignore them. It's really, unbelievably, horribly bad.

Right, she can carry on and make tons of money, get tons of outside of gaming support and gamer support from poser gamers who just wanna be gamers because it's popular, and put a smile on her face.

But SHE'S the victim.


She's getting threats and harassment. That makes her a victim.

She's also getting support. That means she has friends.

Her opinions are also popular. I support her because I think she's right. That is, her videos have convinced me that games are sexist in a way that doesn't make games better, and I want to make better games.

Getting money isn't wrong, but since you're upset here's more fuel to the fire: these two people who make technically (as in, filming, staging, editing) worse videos than Anita, who are getting $8000 per month to make a thing called "Sarkeesian Effect". Her harassers are getting tons of money for harassing her.

Well, except that they've only started to start filming once they hit k´$15.000. Per month.

Seriously. Several people make their living from harassing her.
There's this lawyer who's paid private investigators to look into women who oppose GamerGate.
This is beyond ridiculous.

And. You. Say. The. Victims. Make. A. Profit.

You are singing to a choir, to the tune of "KILL THE WITCH, SHE IS A BORE" and then have the gall to say that "well people should just ignore it", and "they should have given a chance, he only said he'd kill him, that's no reason to get upset", and "I'm not a bully, I'm not doing anything wrong!"

If you quack like a duck and walk like a duck, and the duck kicks puppies and you say you're not a duck but kicking puppies is all right, there's only so many times people are going to buy it.

Words can absolutely hurt people, no question.

Yes, but online posts you can ignore don't.


You can't ignore everything.
Posting until someone has too much is wrong.
Knowing that, we know that posting too much bad stuff is wrong, because without it, the point of "too much" will either be reached later, or never.

Drunk driving is bad because it makes accidents more likely.
Driving under influence is wrong even before the accident happens, because we try to prevent the accident in the first place.

Being mean is bad for the same reason bullying is bad.

Not telling the truth is bad for the same reason lying is bad, which is bad for the same reason breaking an oath is bad.

Posting online harassment is bad and wrong, even when it's ignored, just like stealing is wrong even when it's something too small to be noticed.

In short, I believe an action can be bad, wrong, evil even if I can't show proof of a direct, measurably evil result of that action.
Last edited by Endoperez on Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Ragdollmaster » Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:44 pm

EPR89 wrote:One thing I would like to point out is that the issues surrounding Paranautical Activity and Valve is in my opinion not an issue about bullying. It's an issue about someone insulting his business partners with incredibly offensive language that made it absolutely unacceptable for the company to associate themselves with him and his product.


Oh I'm well aware of that, that guy's just an idiot, but Phoenix has trouble keeping track of shitposting and started going off about Anita Sarkeesian in this thread- that's what I was responding to.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Endoperez » Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:51 pm

EPR89 wrote:The stuff that guy wrote is what I would expect a twelve year old to come up with when his internet connection craps out during a game he has been waiting for all day. And the fact that he doesn't seem to understand just what he did wrong doesn't help either. He somehow seems to think that he is the victim.


I read an interesting article about this yesterday. It has a very feminist slant on it, but even if you disagree with the conclusions the article draws, you might agree with the suggested explanation for how people can think of themselves as the victim when an outsider only sees them as someone who did something wrong.

Emphasis mine, [comments or omissions in brackets], ... is omission.

We all see ourselves as the “good guy” in the narrative of our lives, and these Defensive White Guys are no different. They believe in their hearts that they understand racism, and believe they understand the experiences of others.
...
They grew up with Free To Be You and Me and learned in school about the many laws and customs we once had that barred women from participating in public life– voting, higher education, certain kinds of employment. They learned about the income disparity. And they said to themselves, “I am not that[=evil].” And they believed it.
...
And the definition of “good guy” changed. It was no longer just a public declaration that you weren’t bigoted and a lack of active oppression of women and people of color. Being a “good guy” now meant engaging in a difficult and complex process of understanding privilege, including your own privilege, acknowledging that, and understanding how racism and misogyny are created and disseminated [it goes on...]
...
But some white people, including these men I’m discussing, whose personal narratives and self-conceptions, like all of us, rely on being “the good guy,” are LIVID. The definition of “good guy” changed. It requires understanding and accepting something they do not have the will and/or ability to understand, and they are angry. They feel betrayed that “good guy” went from easy to difficult, was taken away from them[.]


http://bittergertrude.com/2014/12/12/th ... nt-page-1/

So basically...
"I am a good guy, I don't hit women, I have black friends! Saying I'd kill him is just an internet thing, other people do it too, it's not wrong! Why are you acting as if I'm not a good guy?! I mean, death threats are only evil if you mean it, and I'm a good guy, so obviously I didn't mean it! Can't you see?"
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Phoenixwarrior141 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:27 pm

Endoperez wrote:You basically implied "developers are weak nerds", and then say I shouldn't be offended. Why should I have to first listen you insult me, and then have you tell me how I should react?

No, I SAID ONE developer was a weak nerd overcome by butthurt. You want me to check my privilege yet?


Yes, in that you can't expect everyone to ignore the harassment. People can only withstand so much before giving up, or breaking down. Which is why these things should not be allowed to continue.


Or, you could, you know, man up and ignore it. You don't have to look at the harassment. Burying your head in the sand would work, easily here.



She's getting threats and harassment. That makes her a victim.

Threats and harassment both justified and ignored.
That means she has a skill never found in the social justice warrior mentality:
The ability to dish it, and take it.

Wow. She actually got a little bit of respect from me.


Her opinions are also popular. I support her because I think she's right. That is, her videos have convinced me that games are sexist in a way that doesn't make games better, and I want to make better games.

You do know Anita is parodied and the videos make more sense then her's right?

Because they say different things in the same way. Neither of them truthful.


Getting money isn't wrong, but since you're upset here's more fuel to the fire: these two people who make technically (as in, filming, staging, editing) worse videos than Anita, who are getting $8000 per month to make a thing called "Sarkeesian Effect". Her harassers are getting tons of money for harassing her.

Well, except that they've only started to start filming once they hit k´$15.000. Per month.

Seriously. Several people make their living from harassing her.

What? Did you read the fucking post you twat?

"The Sarkeesian Effect will be a feature-length documentary covering an ongoing phenomenon in video game and tech circles, culminating in the recent outrage known as #GamerGate: the progressive infiltration by disingenuous “Social Justice Warriors” – individuals who claim high minded ideals while operating unethically.

The goal of this film will be three-fold:
1. To introduce #GamerGate to a wider audience of non-gamers.
2. To give a voice to those who have been victimized by the Social Justice “moral authority”.
3. To fully expose the depths of this corruption.
"
Nothing is there.

"The methodology of Social Justice has a chilling effect on the culture: by demanding perfect diversity, they ensure that true diversity will never be allowed. By celebrating victims-and-only-victims, the conversation is controlled by the voices that complain the loudest; seldom are these the voices those who have actually been hurt. As a result, the culture winds up being directed by those who are most unscrupulous. Creators, gamers, and actual victims are excluded from the conversation.
"
Or there.

So, "harassing" is disagreeing?

Ragdoll, Endo, Gray, Korban, EPR you're all harassing me. Check your privilege.

Doesn't work when I do it. Wonder why.

But thanks, now I know a good cause to donate money to, so people can actually know what's going on in gaming.

There's this lawyer who's paid private investigators to look into women who oppose GamerGate.
This is beyond ridiculous.

How so? No one is being victimized because private investigators are investigating them.
THAT'S WHAT THEY DO!

And. You. Say. The. Victims. Make. A. Profit.

They do. Anita gets $30,000 a video. OFF THE KICKSTARTER PROFITS ALONE.
Not to mention other deals that might have netted her money.

$160,000 well spent. That's enough HAZMAT suits to keep every doctor from getting Ebola ever if each suit costed $50 dollars.

But no, FEMINISM is more important.
Riiiiiiiiiiight.

You are singing to a choir, to the tune of "KILL THE WITCH, SHE IS A BORE" and then have the gall to say that "well people should just ignore it", and "they should have given a chance, he only said he'd kill him, that's no reason to get upset", and "I'm not a bully, I'm not doing anything wrong!"

You love straw-men don't you?
Oh well this can't get worse.


[quite[If you quack like a duck and walk like a duck, and the duck kicks puppies[/quote]
And it did.

Did you. Seriously. Fucking. Equate kicking a infant dog. To not agreeing with a fucking con artist feminist who only wants her way.

You. Fucking. Disgust me.

and you say you're not a duck but kicking puppies is all right,

See above mister tumblrette.

there's only so many times people are going to buy it.

If Anita can be a victim a few dozen times and get profit for it, I can claim what's actually true-

Oh wait, no I can't. Because people aren't interested in the truth. MRA meetings isn't a meeting of hate groups. GamerGate isn't a Nazi movement and Anita and Zoe aren't victims.
People don't believe any of that though.


You can't ignore everything.

But you can ignore this. I ignore the bullshit you say on a daily basis until I feel like dealing with it.

I'm not a victim. I don't claim to be a victim. I. AM. NOT. A. VICTIM.

Posting until someone has too much is wrong.
Knowing that, we know that posting too much bad stuff is wrong, because without it, the point of "too much" will either be reached later, or never.

It is. That doesn't mean you can play victim until someone get's lynched because it's easily (And I MEAN easily).

Speaking from experience here.



Drunk driving is bad because it makes accidents more likely.
Driving under influence is wrong even before the accident happens, because we try to prevent the accident in the first place.

Universes of difference.



Being mean is bad for the same reason bullying is bad.

This isn't bullying however. Which is the only actual first world problem that is actually worth a damn.


Not telling the truth is bad for the same reason lying is bad, which is bad for the same reason breaking an oath is bad.

Relevance?


Posting online harassment is bad and wrong, even when it's ignored, just like stealing is wrong even when it's something too small to be noticed.

Difference is that when something like a penny is stolen people don't play victim.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Ragdollmaster » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:17 pm

So Phoenix continues to ignore all of this and say "man up."



I mean, if you had any doubt left, that should pretty much confirm that there's really no point talking to him. I'd advise just not posting any more in this thread.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Phoenixwarrior141 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:23 pm

Ragdollmaster wrote:So Phoenix continues to ignore all of this and say "man up."



I mean, if you had any doubt left, that should pretty much confirm that there's really no point talking to him. I'd advise just not posting any more in this thread.

Riiiighht because social justice fuckheads are children

That only helps my point that they're being too fucking sensitive.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby SamW » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:02 am

There are many reasons to hate Valve. But being mean to developers isn't one of them. Valve has a track record of not caring about their customers, in quality control or fairness in pricing. Valve has a commanding position in this industry and they squander it to appease developers and squash consumers. Valve is a developer, so there is reason to believe they are biased to their fellow industry members. We, the consumers in the games industry, have pretty much been screwed. Marketing infested 'reporting' and a dying off of truly independent, consumer advocating, retail outlets. Steam is a product of Valve, GoG is a subsidiary of the CD projeckt group which also makes games. Hell the humble store started as a partnership between developers to sell their own games in a creative way. At least they have the sense to financially spin the company off as an independent entity.

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:And the dev who did it (Multiple devs mind you, so once EA's PR guy goes insane we can expect their games to get pulled as well, if they weren't already) returned to the company after contemplating leaving.

Funny you mention EA. Because most existing and future EA games are actually disqualified from being on the store. And despite what people say about whose conflicting policy that causes the disqualification is more righteous (hint, both companies are in the right when it comes to mutual disagreements), the case with EA games and Valve, shows that Valve actually has a spine to stand up for something, instead of waffle over and let developers trample over their store. The very fact that Valve had, at one point in time, pushed back, gave me hope that they could be a boon for the consumer. Of course Valve has never done a thing like that since. Now it is all about skinner boxes and carrots on sticks. One should notice that the bulk of meme's about steam are not of the endearing kinds.

As for the paranautical activity incident. It is meaningless. It doesn't prove any resilience to the current Valve's spine. It amounts to a sanity check, nobody will work with someone who directly insults and threatens you with words. However insults in the form of crapware is just fine.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Phoenixwarrior141 » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:24 am

SamW wrote:There are many reasons to hate Valve. But being mean to developers isn't one of them. Valve has a track record of not caring about their customers, in quality control or fairness in pricing. Valve has a commanding position in this industry and they squander it to appease developers and squash consumers.

That's a large part of the appeal of steam though. It makes distribution easy for anyone who can get through.

Oh, and developers price their own games.

Valve is a developer, so there is reason to believe they are biased to their fellow industry members.

Now you're tinfoilhatting.

We, the consumers in the games industry, have pretty much been screwed. Marketing infested 'reporting' and a dying off of truly independent, consumer advocating, retail outlets.

How so?

Steam is a product of Valve, GoG is a subsidiary of the CD projeckt group which also makes games. Hell the humble store started as a partnership between developers to sell their own games in a creative way. At least they have the sense to financially spin the company off as an independent entity.

That means little though.

Funny you mention EA. Because most existing and future EA games are actually disqualified from being on the store.

By EA's choice to be greedy as fuck and not sell all the DLC packaged or NO DLC AT ALL.

As for the paranautical activity incident. It is meaningless. It doesn't prove any resilience to the current Valve's spine. It amounts to a sanity check, nobody will work with someone who directly insults and threatens you with words. However insults in the form of crapware is just fine.

Correct, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have reacted better.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Endoperez » Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:40 am

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:No, I SAID ONE developer was a weak nerd overcome by butthurt. You want me to check my privilege yet?


You said he's probably weak because he is a developer. That is exactly this associations thing I'm talking about.

Or, you could, you know, man up and ignore it. You don't have to look at the harassment. Burying your head in the sand would work, easily here.


You can't avoid seeing death threats communicated at you if you check your social media. It can't be avoided. And again, ignoring it won't work in the long run, and we shouldn't demand that.

She's getting threats and harassment. That makes her a victim.

Threats and harassment both justified and ignored.


Threats and harassment can't be justified.

I'm glad you can respect her for something.

You do know Anita is parodied and the videos make more sense then her's right?


Her videos make so much sense games are changing. Her parodies make so much sense she is harassed further.

.
So, "harassing" is disagreeing?

Ragdoll, Endo, Gray, Korban, EPR you're all harassing me. Check your privilege.

Doesn't work when I do it. Wonder why.

But thanks, now I know a good cause to donate money to, so people can actually know what's going on in gaming.


Those guys reviewed Jack Thompson, because he was willing to bash Anita.

They named their video after Sarkeesian.

Their second trailer was unabashededly hitting all the Gamergate talking points from the very first moments.

One of the guys made a video where he claims Anita hypnotizes people by using specific phrases like 'was' and 'have you ever'. (Anita Sarkeesian the early years 2)


And it did.

Did you. Seriously. Fucking. Equate kicking a infant dog. To not agreeing with a fucking con artist feminist who only wants her way.
It's a meme. Sorry for using it, it seems it's not as common as I thought. I meant the caricature of evil.
Image

there's only so many times people are going to buy it.

If Anita can be a victim a few dozen times and get profit for it, I can claim what's actually true-

Oh wait, no I can't. Because people aren't interested in the truth.
[/quote]

You said you respect her for standing up, but say here she has not been harassed when she said she was.

The truth...

Is that you see nothing wrong in ignoring what I say.
You do not attempt to learn from a disagreement.
You don't see when your actions are like bullying.
You think you are a good person, by default.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby SamW » Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:04 am

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:Oh, and developers price their own games.

Exactly. Valve allows developers to do what they want even if there is a clear inequality in what most developer do. Valve is complicit in the practices that they allow developers to take.

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:By EA's choice to be greedy as fuck and not sell all the DLC packaged or NO DLC AT ALL.

Yeah, exactly (while the details of this disagreement are confidential) Valve must have put in place some kind of measure that caused this fallout. I have the belief that this measure is to the benefit of the consumer (even if only by it's side effects), and that is what makes me believe that Valve could fight for the consumer... sometimes.

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:Now you're tinfoilhatting.

I did not just provide a conspiracy theory did I? No you assumed I am talking about conspiracies. I am saying that Valve have the biased perspective of the industry as a developer. Consumers have their own perspective of the industry. These two perspectives are different and the choices made about the Steam platform are informed by a developer's perspective, and not the consumers.

I feel we have very few retailers with any strong voice and momentum in the industry. And we have even fewer who will advocate for the consumer.

Of course the real problem is that Valve doesn't have any strong competition and therefore, maintaining the status quo and appeasing their suppliers is the way to maximize profits. They simply don't have to worry all that much about consumers leaving.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Van » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:57 pm

Is this about Steam being a DRM based platform where you own the game but only legally on the steam client, not the IP to have a client based license where you can launch the game without needing 3rd party software and parameters that can be fixed with a fixed exe, so many people go on about the day steam goes down is the day everyone loses their games, think about if you had Final Fantasy A Realm Reborn, that game doesn't need steam to run it, it runs the game from steam, meaning as song as you take the command line out and the launch options the game will still run and you still have a copy of the game. If you had bioshock infinite that doesn't mean you can't play it because it's only a steam copy does it? like so many people hating on steam, I've never had a problem with it, I don't hack. Half my games have been gifted to me , most of the games I buy have been on sale, every game I buy or don't buy takes in the user reviews, the steam workshop helps me find useful or fun mods to enjoy for free as well I add, even when you are looking for something new or enjoyable to use in skyrim, l4d2 or gmod whatever. I have over 2000 screenshots and am using this as a way to document my games, The hours counted on my profile gives me an indication of how long I've played games in a fortnight, comments on profiles is usually lighthearted and sarcastic. Like with all these games, these days to even have a game developed is one thing, to have a game on steam is another - no really think about this in the broader sense of the world of fiction and video games. You can have the best game or the best book - but simply having it doesn't mean that anyone knows that you have that book/game, until. Until you go and cross market it, set up a kickstarter for development funding, do promotional videos for in game footage - sending twitter updates about how you just made something really awesome and did bugfix #62 , you show off your game at PAX or you hit it into E3, you have an Indie studio - no big IP game publisher. Your game has no stores selling it because nobody knows your game yet, so then Desura or G2A see's it and sells a cheap steam key for someone to stumble upon and play and think, well shit this isn't too bad, but it still isn't on steam yet, not yet anyway it's in early access still waiting to be greenlit. By the time half the games make it to steam - people on the internet already know what it is , have a few videos already, been on youtube to suss it out and there's already reviews by the time you finally see that game, to have a game on steam, it helps the people who made it , how? to have millions of steam users to be able to purchase their game, think about if you had a retail copy of GTA V, so that means you get your social account linked in, but with a DRM FREE copy of the game - no steam copy. Think about that, you lose your discs, the game is gone - unless you have a backup right? If you just log in to steam you can download it and uninstall it as many times as you like. Sure the devs won't get the cut they would like in return for having their game hosted and a percentile marketing , advertising and so on.
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