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So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Endoperez » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:44 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:Demand an apology and if they don't give one, cut them then at least.

At least then you gave them multiple chances.


Assuming Steam made this their policy, wouldn't it mean that any company could direct a death threat at one (1) Valve employee with no repercussions as long as they later apologized, with no ill effects.


Do you think that a corporate policy that allows dwath threats is okay?
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:05 pm

Ragdollmaster wrote:"Sorry I threatened to kill you"

>showing any tolerance for death threats

:|

More sincere than that.

Endoperez wrote:
Assuming Steam made this their policy, wouldn't it mean that any company could direct a death threat at one (1) Valve employee with no repercussions as long as they later apologized, with no ill effects.

As it should be, they didn't hurt anyone.

Do you think that a corporate policy that allows dwath threats is okay?

Depends, most death threats are hollow. So "Allowing" for them is simply acknowledging that.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Endoperez » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:30 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:
Ragdollmaster wrote:"Sorry I threatened to kill you"

>showing any tolerance for death threats

:|

More sincere than that.

Endoperez wrote:
Assuming Steam made this their policy, wouldn't it mean that any company could direct a death threat at one (1) Valve employee with no repercussions as long as they later apologized, with no ill effects.

As it should be, they didn't hurt anyone.

Do you think that a corporate policy that allows dwath threats is okay?

Depends, most death threats are hollow. So "Allowing" for them is simply acknowledging that.


Following that logic, is allowing most death threats ok as long as they didn't hurt anyone and they were hollow? I'd say 1 is already wrong, but the repercussions might be variable, depending on... not sure of what, exactly.

Is there a specific number of death threats that are too much? Is it too much on a threats-per-threatener or threats-per-victim?
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Ragdollmaster » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:03 pm

As Endo is demonstrating, the line for that sort of thing blurs very quickly, which is why there's zero tolerance for it in every developed nation. No company will tolerate such a thing either. In the United States, death threats are considered a form of felony assault and you can be imprisoned for five years for threatening to kill someone.

Honestly, with such blatant proof and controversy, the guy should be counting himself lucky that he only shafted his company by being a fucking moron. He could've landed in jail for half a decade.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:20 pm

Endoperez wrote:Following that logic, is allowing most death threats ok as long as they didn't hurt anyone and they were hollow? I'd say 1 is already wrong, but the repercussions might be variable, depending on... not sure of what, exactly.

It should depend on whether you are actually afraid of getting murdered. Gabe clearly wasn't.



Ragdollmaster wrote:Honestly, with such blatant proof and controversy, the guy should be counting himself lucky that he only shafted his company by being a fucking moron. He could've landed in jail for half a decade.

I'm also curious.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby EPR89 » Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:54 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:
Endoperez wrote:Following that logic, is allowing most death threats ok as long as they didn't hurt anyone and they were hollow? I'd say 1 is already wrong, but the repercussions might be variable, depending on... not sure of what, exactly.

It should depend on whether you are actually afraid of getting murdered. Gabe clearly wasn't.

That's not the point.

The point is that this is unacceptable behaviour towards someone whose service you have decided to use. If he wanted to state a point of criticism he should have done it. Instead he insulted the company and employees.

I don't understand why you defend something like that and paint Valve as the bad boy. The relationship between Valve and developers whose games are featured on Steam is a professional one. In this context behaviour like the one shown by this developer is an absolute no go. Decisions in this context have to be consistent. If they let this slide, they would essentially approve it. If someone else decided to use language like that and got reprimanded they could cite this incident as proof that Valve is in no position to act upon it.
He did not give them any choice but to react. And in my opinion that reaction was absolutely justified. He thinks Steam is a piece of shit? Well, okay. Use something else.
You think you can use threatening language against one of Valve's representatives, a company whose services you use? Bye, bye. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
He clearly was not interested in a professional relationship, so they did him the favour and ended it.

He brought this on himself. What happened here is 100% his fault.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:38 pm

EPR89 wrote:The point is that this is unacceptable behaviour towards someone whose service you have decided to use.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean that Valve couldn't have reacted somewhat differently.


I don't understand why you defend something like that and paint Valve as the bad boy. The relationship between Valve and developers whose games are featured on Steam is a professional one. In this context behaviour like the one shown by this developer is an absolute no go.

See above.

Decisions in this context have to be consistent. If they let this slide, they would essentially approve it.

True, but what's the harm in approving it?

If someone else decided to use language like that and got reprimanded they could cite this incident as proof that Valve is in no position to act upon it.

They never were in a position to act upon it however.

He did not give them any choice but to react. And in my opinion that reaction was absolutely justified. He thinks Steam is a piece of shit? Well, okay. Use something else.

I dunno why having on an opinion of a service that he uses because he's forced to without getting far less profit.

He clearly was not interested in a professional relationship, so they did him the favour and ended it.

And killed their game in the process.


He brought this on himself. What happened here is 100% his fault.

Also agreed.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby EPR89 » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:56 pm

It is not Valve's problem if this ends up killing the game. He should have thought about it before.

People have talked about the problem with just treating this like a non-issue. I have no interest in repeating it again. Valve had to send a message and they did. There was nothing wrong with it. It was not an overreaction. That guy went to the lowest register to vent against Valve and they did the only thing they could have done here; break ties with them completely.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Endoperez » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:44 am

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:
Endoperez wrote:Following that logic, is allowing most death threats ok as long as they didn't hurt anyone and they were hollow? I'd say 1 is already wrong, but the repercussions might be variable, depending on... not sure of what, exactly.

It should depend on whether you are actually afraid of getting murdered. Gabe clearly wasn't.


Okay, so you are saying it only becomeza crime once the target subjectively is affected.

The target's state of a one is affected by all the hate they receive. Wouldn't that mean that if they ever become afraod, the guy from Paranautical is also partly to blame?

If that's true, he should also share the consewuences.


I think there's another disconnect in play here. Have you ever used your real name online, Phoenix? I have, and do. Everything I say and do since I was about 14 or so can be connected to me and I've been aware of it and acted responsibly so that it won't burn me. It's also my identity. It's me in a way I shouldn't have to abandon.

You seem to think internet isn't as important as real life. Would a death threat be worse if you got it in paper? Obviously, because it carries the aspect of 'I know how to physically reach you'. However, you also seem to attach this 'if it's the internet, you can leave it' thing to all online threats.

You obviously don't mean 'stop using one of the modern world's defining tools'. You probably mean 'stop using that account, become anonymous'. Well, I'm not anonymous. I'm Endoperez. It's not a name I use in real life, but e.g. people from this forum who will get into the game business might recognize it, years from now. And what anonymous account can Gabe Newell use when he talks for Steam? How can he talk to people and listen to his customers if he gets threats, and has to abandon online communicatipns as a person representing Steam?

Tl;dr,
Internet accounts are not all something you can abandon. Some are important.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Korban3 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:05 pm

"Hollow" death threats.
You've never met a Marine, have you? It's totes not worth taking the chance. If someone online issues a death threat, there's a pretty good chance they were a Marine and have every intent to follow through with it.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Phoenixwarrior141 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:28 pm

Korban3 wrote:"Hollow" death threats.
You've never met a Marine, have you? It's totes not worth taking the chance. If someone online issues a death threat, there's a pretty good chance they were a Marine and have every intent to follow through with it.

Dude, it's a game developer who founded a game studio. Gaben could probably beat his face in.

Endoperez wrote:Okay, so you are saying it only becomeza crime once the target subjectively is affected.

The target's state of a one is affected by all the hate they receive. Wouldn't that mean that if they ever become afraod, the guy from Paranautical is also partly to blame?

If that's true, he should also share the consewuences.

Yes, he should be punished as well. I do think that Valve should have given them another change however


I think there's another disconnect in play here. Have you ever used your real name online, Phoenix? I have, and do. Everything I say and do since I was about 14 or so can be connected to me and I've been aware of it and acted responsibly so that it won't burn me. It's also my identity. It's me in a way I shouldn't have to abandon.

No, but I'm smart enough to not be an absolute dick online if I wouldn't be an absolute dick in real life. Though I keep my anonymous online persona different then my real life me.

Though I don't have different opinions because of it.


You seem to think internet isn't as important as real life. Would a death threat be worse if you got it in paper?

Yes, because then they knew where to send it. So they could end up finding me.

Obviously, because it carries the aspect of 'I know how to physically reach you'.

Called it.

However, you also seem to attach this 'if it's the internet, you can leave it' thing to all online threats.

No, I mean that people on the internet tell people to go kill themselves all the time, or say they're going to kill people, or other things. These are hollow threats however.

And mean absolutely nothing unless you let them, being afraid gives them all their power.


You obviously don't mean 'stop using one of the modern world's defining tools'. You probably mean 'stop using that account, become anonymous'. Well, I'm not anonymous. I'm Endoperez. It's not a name I use in real life, but e.g. people from this forum who will get into the game business might recognize it, years from now.

No, I mean that you should take these threats as they come and retort with "Meh".

See above for details.

And what anonymous account can Gabe Newell use when he talks for Steam? How can he talk to people and listen to his customers if he gets threats, and has to abandon online communicatipns as a person representing Steam?

Again, see above.


Tl;dr,
Internet accounts are not all something you can abandon. Some are important.

Some, but you can still get death threats from some passerby who went "Different opinion than me? DIE MOTHAFUKA". You just need to go "These are hollow threats. Like the navy seal copypasta, it means nothing".
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Endoperez » Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:54 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:Dude, it's a game developer who founded a game studio. Gaben could probably beat his face in.


Why are you picking on game developers? What did we ever do to you? Why do you say we are weaklings? Are you going to tell me that I'm a scrawny nerd living in my mom's basement, next?

And again, WHAT SHOULD VALVE HAVE DONE?

What other concrete option do they have? You say what they did was wrong, but they were right to do something. Unless you can provide an alternative, their only option was to stop doing business with these guys.

Valve shouldn't and legally can't demand money to publish a game, that'd be extortion. They're not a legal entity that can decide to fine someone.

They do business. That's what they do. They decide how to do business. Or, in this case, to not do it.


No, I mean that people on the internet tell people to go kill themselves all the time, or say they're going to kill people, or other things. These are hollow threats however.

And mean absolutely nothing unless you let them, being afraid gives them all their power.


Yes, but having emotions isn't a choice. You can't choose not to feel bad when you are harassed day in and day out for months.

Some, but you can still get death threats from some passerby who went "Different opinion than me? DIE MOTHAFUKA". You just need to go "These are hollow threats. Like the navy seal copypasta, it means nothing".


A random passersby, maybe... but when it's everyone and they're directed at you, personally, and made to hurt in any way possible, it's really hard to go "it means nothing". If the totality of it ends up being bad, then everyone who participates in it is guilty of causing the end result.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Korban3 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:21 pm

Bro, I'm a game dev who would like to found a studio.
I don't make death threats.
I make death promises.
A real man always keeps his word.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Phoenixwarrior141 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:44 pm

Korban3 wrote:Bro, I'm a game dev who would like to found a studio.
I don't make death threats.
I make death promises.
A real man always keeps his word.


Image

Endoperez wrote:Why are you picking on game developers? What did we ever do to you? Why do you say we are weaklings? Are you going to tell me that I'm a scrawny nerd living in my mom's basement, next?

No, I assume you're a slightly smaller then average nerd living in an apartment.



And again, WHAT SHOULD VALVE HAVE DONE?

Demanded an apology, and if they didn't get one, pull the game and blacklist the developers.

That would be more fair in my eyes.


What other concrete option do they have? You say what they did was wrong, but they were right to do something. Unless you can provide an alternative, their only option was to stop doing business with these guys.

See above.


Yes, but having emotions isn't a choice. You can't choose not to feel bad when you are harassed day in and day out for months.

Clearly Anita has. Unless she's weeping behind the scenes (In which case. BULLSHIT) of course. Point being, yes you can, you can choose to ignore the "Harassment" and be scared of all criticism ever, or realize that these people have no effect on you and you shouldn't care about their opinions.


A random passersby, maybe... but when it's everyone and they're directed at you, personally, and made to hurt in any way possible, it's really hard to go "it means nothing". If the totality of it ends up being bad, then everyone who participates in it is guilty of causing the end result.

That wasn't in this case though. It was ONE person.
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Re: So, Valve Pulled Paranautical Activity

Postby Endoperez » Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:53 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:No, I assume you're a slightly smaller then average nerd living in an apartment.


Ah, yes, feel free to ignore the question re: ARE YOU A BULLY to answer my mostly-rhetorical question. You have proved you have not reached the bottom, but still, why did you feel the need to bully the people who create your hobby?

Clearly Anita has. Unless she's weeping behind the scenes (In which case. BULLSHIT) of course. Point being, yes you can, you can choose to ignore the "Harassment" and be scared of all criticism ever, or realize that these people have no effect on you and you shouldn't care about their opinions.


Anita is an exceptionally strong woman. You can't expect everyone to be as strong as she is, to be as good at withstanding harassment.

The fact that she can carry on doesn't mean these people have no effect, or that you are able to ignore them. It's really, unbelievably, horribly bad.

Words can absolutely hurt people, no question.

Also, this is about withstanding harassment and abuse, which is very different from criticism.
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