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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Endoperez » Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:00 pm

Extra Credits guys like art games and speak against harassment. I agree, but don't think it's a bad thing, no surprise there.

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:Sure, art games need to exist. But they need to remain on their itty bitty little section of the industry. Let games like Hatred exist, and I'll have no problem with shit like The Walking Dead existing.


What sort of system do you propose to enforce that there won't be too many art games? Steam quotas? Special "art game developer" badges, so that only the experienced and approved creators are allowed to make them? What if you need to have released at least 10 "non-art" games before you're allowed to publish an art game?

This is a hyperbole, obviously.

The same sort of hyperbole would be needed to force game developers to move from entertaining games to art games ("there NEED TO BE more art games"). Developers are going to create the games they either WANT to make, or the games they're PAID to create. Preferably both at the same time!

Unless someone coughs up the dough, the only developers doing art games will do it because they want to do it, and there's no reason to stop them, is there?
And since games industry makes more money than movies as-is, no one has the money to stop entertaining games from being made.

Has anyone critisized Hatred for its gameplay? All I've seen is criticism of its story and themes. If it really was about mechanics with no story, there wouldn't have been any uproar at all. It's not. It shows really disgusting, violent acts as your goal and as your reward. That is story more than it's gameplay.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:34 pm

kibaoo wrote:before games can be called "Art", Metal Gear Solid 5 Phantom Pain has to be released.

Implied child porn.
Implied child porn EVERYWHERE.

Endoperez wrote:What sort of system do you propose to enforce that there won't be too many art games? Steam quotas? Special "art game developer" badges, so that only the experienced and approved creators are allowed to make them? What if you need to have released at least 10 "non-art" games before you're allowed to publish an art game?

No need for a system, it's the consumer that needs to be responsible and the developers will be responsible on their own as a result.
That's why indie games thrive, developers make something and get rewarded for being different. If the consumer takes it upon his or herself to put gameplay first, developers will eventually catch on and start making actual games.
It's already happening, people are quickly realizing that games like Gone Home and The Walking Dead have little to offer gaming in actual gameplay, and are moving on to actual games.

This is a hyperbole, obviously.

The same sort of hyperbole would be needed to force game developers to move from entertaining games to art games ("there NEED TO BE more art games"). Developers are going to create the games they either WANT to make, or the games they're PAID to create. Preferably both at the same time!

Exactly, so if the consumer takes it upon himself to purchase the games he enjoys, the entire problem will be solved. Indie games are getting made because they want to be made, making sure the best developers get the spotlight and everyone else is weened out ensures that all types of games exist.
I'll keep playing (And hopefully once I get some form of skill to draw the necessary art, make) murder simulators that allow me to continue exercising my straight white patriarchal privilege and burn women alive.
That was sarcasm, in case you didn't realize.

Unless someone coughs up the dough, the only developers doing art games will do it because they want to do it, and there's no reason to stop them, is there?
And since games industry makes more money than movies as-is, no one has the money to stop entertaining games from being made.

Exactly, so if art games remain a niche all should be good.


Has anyone critisized Hatred for its gameplay?

Not directly. All the critique I've seen has been calling it "Vile" and "Lacking purpose" or "Gratuitously violent". Nothing directly about the gameplay and how twin-sticky it is.
Since I'm a sucker for a good twin stick shooter (Global Outbreak, which looks like Hatred in every way).
All I've seen is criticism of its story and themes. If it really was about mechanics with no story, there wouldn't have been any uproar at all. It's not. It shows really disgusting, violent acts as your goal and as your reward. That is story more than it's gameplay.

You'll need to clarify that, there isn't any story. And whatever there story there is, is entirely fabricated by the player.
The developers have come right out and said "No story at all. Enjoy the murder.", you can try and guess whatever story there is from the protagonist's speeches in the trailers, and the events from the storytelling trailer, but nothing is concrete. Your actions have a story, but the protagonist does not.
If you want me to be literal, the story is:
Hatred: show
I just fucking hate this world.
And these humans worms, feasting on it's carcass.
They do not deserve a natural death.
Unconsciously waiting to be obliterated by my Hatred.
Those parasites think their walls can save them
But I will destroy everything they own, and everything they are.
And nothing else.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Endoperez » Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:55 pm

What if the audience LIKES art games?

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/11417 ... -games.htm

"Telltale games has announced that it has sold 28 million episodes of its storytelling-based The Walking Dead video game episodes. "

Since the consumers ask for it, the developers should provide.

However, then you go on to say

Exactly, so if art games remain a niche all should be good.


Why is it good? The consumers decide, either way. If Telltale Games became the single biggest game company in the history of video games and sold 30% of all video games in any given year, why would it be bad? The consumers are getting the games they want.

Now, I could see it being a personal problem - at that point, it would certainly affect other games as well. If you don't like that, it's fine. However, that means you're a minority, and if you truly believe the consumers should decide, you should let THEM decide.

You'll need to clarify that, there isn't any story.


What is story? Is it words? No, it can't be! Disney's Fantasia movies, and old Road Runner cartoons and all sorts of other wordless works tell stories.

Okay, so if words aren't what defines a story, then what? A beginning, a middle, an end? That's the format of a story, and of games, and of playing, but that can describe all sorts of other things.

What about one of the dictionary definitions? "An account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment." Well, it IS that. An interactive account, sure, but it shows imaginary people and events, and it is for entertainment.

What's the difference between story and narrative, as used in games? Story is written out and plotted. Narrative is crafted to support the story. Game mechanics can convey narrative - an impossible boss fight can show how the character has lost hope, enemies running away from you can show you as the baddest badass to ever have walked the earth. Hatred is much more about the narrative side of storytelling, rather than the heavily scripted, written and acted-out style that's more commonly called "story".

It still tells a story. A very specific, very violent story.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:43 pm

Endoperez wrote:What if the audience LIKES art games?

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/11417 ... -games.htm

"Telltale games has announced that it has sold 28 million episodes of its storytelling-based The Walking Dead video game episodes. "

Since the consumers ask for it, the developers should provide.

That statistic proves that gaming is going down the shitter.
Telltale has no developmental talent to speak of, they make movies disguised as games and then sell them as games.
And even so, the total of Call of Duty, Medal of Honor, Fallout, XCOM, Battlefield, Arma, Far Cry and Dark Souls COMBINED dwarf that number extensively. None of those are considered art, all of them have gameplay.
That is ignored the countless smaller series I missed.


However, then you go on to say

Exactly, so if art games remain a niche all should be good.


Why is it good? The consumers decide, either way. If Telltale Games became the single biggest game company in the history of video games and sold 30% of all video games in any given year, why would it be bad? The consumers are getting the games they want.

Except that's not what they want.
And that would be bad because games that aren't games are getting sold as games. Quality is important. TWD is not quality.


Now, I could see it being a personal problem - at that point, it would certainly affect other games as well. If you don't like that, it's fine. However, that means you're a minority, and if you truly believe the consumers should decide, you should let THEM decide.

The millions of people playing the games that AREN'T art also agree with me. Saying I'm a minority is barely correct.

What is story? Is it words? No, it can't be! Disney's Fantasia movies, and old Road Runner cartoons and all sorts of other wordless works tell stories.

I am aware of that. Story is a plot, that tells a sequence of events with a purpose and a solid resolution or ending. Hatred has none, it's an open world murder simulator. To say it has story is to give it too much credit, especially when the devs themselves said "No story.".


Okay, so if words aren't what defines a story, then what? A beginning, a middle, an end? That's the format of a story, and of games, and of playing, but that can describe all sorts of other things.

See above.


What about one of the dictionary definitions? "An account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment." Well, it IS that. An interactive account, sure, but it shows imaginary people and events, and it is for entertainment.

But it has no plot, only one character and all of the events within the game are the making of the player and not scripted.


What's the difference between story and narrative, as used in games? Story is written out and plotted. Narrative is crafted to support the story. Game mechanics can convey narrative - an impossible boss fight can show how the character has lost hope, enemies running away from you can show you as the baddest badass to ever have walked the earth. Hatred is much more about the narrative side of storytelling, rather than the heavily scripted, written and acted-out style that's more commonly called "story".

Except, even through that, there is still no plot or anything. There isn't any story for the narrative to support, and few mechanics to convey the narrative anyways.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby EPR89 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:29 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:
Endoperez wrote:What if the audience LIKES art games?

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/11417 ... -games.htm

"Telltale games has announced that it has sold 28 million episodes of its storytelling-based The Walking Dead video game episodes. "

Since the consumers ask for it, the developers should provide.

That statistic proves that gaming is going down the shitter.
Telltale has no developmental talent to speak of, they make movies disguised as games and then sell them as games.

Quality argument...


Hey, does anyone know if there is a way to completely mute a thread? So that it doesn't show up under unread posts in the forum overview? Basically as if it didn't exist?
I can't help but click those red threads and I think it might be messing with my mental health if things continue the way they are now.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:52 pm

I have the same problem.
Just click it and hit back, that'll fix it.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Endoperez » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:02 am

Sorry EPR. What about a new subforum where all annoying threads can be moved? "The Pit", maybe.


Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:And even so, the total of Call of Duty, Medal of Honor, Fallout, XCOM, Battlefield, Arma, Far Cry and Dark Souls COMBINED dwarf that number extensively. None of those are considered art, all of them have gameplay.
That is ignored the countless smaller series I missed.


So Telltale is not important because their biggest series isn't as big as 8 other game series, years or decades old, including several 'Game of the Years'? Well duh. The most-selling game series are Call of Duty and GTA and Mario games, it seems. Pokemon is also high, and Wii games are at the top.

Tetris dwarfs them all (individually, not as a group) and Tetris is pure gameplay without story.



The consumers are getting the games they want.

Except that's not what they want.
And that would be bad because games that aren't games are getting sold as games.


So consumers are wrong and it's bad because you don't like those games. Ha!
if you truly believe the consumers should decide, you should let THEM decide.

The millions of people playing the games that AREN'T art also agree with me. Saying I'm a minority is barely correct.


I asked a hypothetical, what-if question. You ignored it by saying it's not factually correct. I know, but I'm interested in your answer.

I am aware of that. Story is a plot, that tells a sequence of events with a purpose and a solid resolution or ending. Hatred has none, it's an open world murder simulator. To say it has story is to give it too much credit, especially when the devs themselves said "No story.".

But it has no plot, only one character and all of the events within the game are the making of the player and not scripted.


I don't want to debate meanings of spe ific words, but to prove a point. If Hatred has nothing but the gameplay, as the devs claim, and it's criticized for not-gameplay... What do you make of it? Clearly there is something there besides gameplay. It has something Tetris lacks.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby rodeje25 » Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:39 am

in divinity the female character isn't unnatural skinny

Image

but the company changed the character art

Image
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Endoperez » Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:37 am

Here's some screenshots from Mevius: Final Fantasy, a mobile game.
Some men might feel a bit uncomfortable with the clothes the main character is wearing, and he's showing less skin than the woman in the Divinity image.

Big images: show
Image

Image


http://gematsu.com/gallery/mevius-final ... r-25-2014/

I don't think this is any different from a game developer listening to fan suggestions on any other matter. For example, back when first Diablo 3 visuals were released 7-ish years ago, there was this hubbub about it being too bright. The devs made some small changes to the dungeons and made sure there's more corpses on the ground. Small, minor changes, nothing big, something that won't ruin or change the game in a meaningful way.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Phoenixwarrior141 » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:49 pm

So Telltale is not important because their biggest series isn't as big as 8 other game series, years or decades old, including several 'Game of the Years'? Well duh. The most-selling game series are Call of Duty and GTA and Mario games, it seems. Pokemon is also high, and Wii games are at the top.

Tetris dwarfs them all (individually, not as a group) and Tetris is pure gameplay without story.

In the sense of the consumer? Not really. The vast majority of people play games for the enjoyment of it (More about this later when we talk about Hatred), so those series are bound to get more sales, so developers are bound to make games like those to satisfy the consumer demand.


So consumers are wrong and it's bad because you don't like those games. Ha!

No, because the consumers don't want their games.
And the only reason I say that those games are bad, is because they ARE. The


I asked a hypothetical, what-if question. You ignored it by saying it's not factually correct. I know, but I'm interested in your answer.

If the consumers want art games then they'll get art games. Odds are that'll never happen (And for that, I'm happy), since the consumers don't want art games, they want INTERESTING games.


I don't want to debate meanings of specific words, but to prove a point. If Hatred has nothing but the gameplay, as the devs claim, and it's criticized for not-gameplay... What do you make of it? Clearly there is something there besides gameplay. It has something Tetris lacks.

I make of it that people need the slightest justification to go on a violent murder spree.
Where do I get that from you ask?
From a variety of people on the internet that have bitched about the fact that Hatred is just murdering innocent people, but most would have no problem if these were "Monsters" posing as people.

And the vast majority of people are pissed because it doesn't have a story or any justification.
Last edited by Phoenixwarrior141 on Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Endoperez » Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:01 pm

Ok. Thanks for the answer, but I'll bow out now.

The things I disagree with are opinions on the quality of stuff. I don't see a point in discussing those with you.

Debating our different views of Hatred won't accomplish anything.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Korban3 » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:38 pm

I see nothing wrong with that main character.
Glorious spandex.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby Phoenixwarrior141 » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:23 am

Korban3 wrote:I see nothing wrong with that main character.
Glorious spandex.

You have my interests.
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Postby kibaoo » Sat Feb 07, 2015 9:47 am

Hatred is not only about killing innocent people, its about killing innocent midd-class people in your neighborhood. I guess people don't want to be reminded that a killing sprees could happen everywhere, anytime. Not just only in Baga, Nigeria, which is far far away for the average Gamer.
In my Opinion, this game has to be released.
besides this, i don't think Hatred has anything to do with this topic.
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