Video games have been ruined forever... again!

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Saedz
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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Post by Saedz » Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:12 pm

Let me ask... why his isn't in Randomness section?

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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Post by Endoperez » Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:38 pm

Saedz wrote:Let me ask... why his isn't in Randomness section?
I meant to post this in Randomness, it's here because I made a mistake.

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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Post by Endoperez » Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:49 pm

My question is: Why do we live in a SciFi future? And, what point wants Adrienne Shawn to prove, if race and gender doesn't matter for the player? Wheres the difference between her disseration? is there any on purpose?
We live in the future because I can't speak German. I couldn't go to a German shop and buy ice cream, but I can discuss such a complex topic with you. Well, there were some mistakes in the translation, but it's still pretty good.

Wir leben in der Zukunft, weil ich nicht Deutsch sprechen. Ich konnte nicht zu einer deutschen Laden gehen und kaufen Eis, aber ich kann ein so komplexes Thema mit Ihnen besprechen. Nun, es gab einige Fehler in der Übersetzung, aber es ist immer noch ziemlich gut.



The part about her dissertation didn't translate properly. I'm trying to translate it again. This might be too difficult for Google Translate. Note: this is only what I believe she means!
Der Teil über ihre Dissertation nicht richtig zu übersetzen. Ich versuche, es noch einmal zu übersetzen. Dies könnte zu komplex sein für die Google Translate. Achtung: Dies ist nur das, was ich glaube, sie bedeutet!

Video games offer players the chance to design representations of people ( game characters ) that are like them. This is not diversity, it is pluralism.
Video-Spiele bieten Spielern die Möglichkeit Darstellungen von Menschen (Spielcharakteren) gestalten, die wie sie selbst sind. Dies ist nicht die Vielfalt, es Pluralismus.

Games do not make it easy to understand representation of marginalized groups.
Spiele machen es nicht leicht, Vertretung der Randgruppen zu verstehen,

Diversity is necessary for the political and educative goal: representation.
Vielfalt ist für die politische und erzieherische Ziel: Vertretung.

It requires that players are actively confronted with diverse content. Diversity is not the result of demand by audiences, but is rather the social responsibility of media producers.

Es verlangt, dass die Spieler aktiv mit vielfältigen Inhalten konfrontiert. Vielfalt ist nicht das Resultat der Nachfrage am das Publikum, aber ist vielmehr die soziale Verantwortung von Medienproduzenten.



It is very complex. One of her most important points is this:
The people who want to see diversity in games, should not prove the importance of representation in games. They should argue for it, but they should not dismiss fun and playfulness.

I think she means this: that Feminists want diversity, but their arguments are false, and they should go towards diversity using different methods.

Es ist sehr komplex. Eine ihrer wichtigsten Punkte ist dies:
Die Menschen, die Vielfalt in der Spiele sehen wollen, sollte nicht zu beweisen,
die Bedeutung der Darstellung in Spielen. Sie sollten dafür streiten, aber sie sollten nicht Spaß und Verspieltheit zu entlassen.

Ich denke, sie bedeutet dies: dass Feministinnen wollen Vielfalt, aber ihre Argumente falsch sind, und sie sollten die Vielfalt passiert nachhelfen mit unterschiedlichen Methoden.



Sometimes the translator wants me to use 'Darstellung', sometimes 'Vertretung'. I don't know which is right.
Manchmal der Übersetzer will, dass ich "Darstellung" verwenden, manchmal "Vertretung" verwenden. Ich weiß nicht, was richtig ist.

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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Post by rodeje25 » Sat Jan 17, 2015 5:09 pm

aber deutsch ist einfach

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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Post by kibaoo » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:30 am

Shawn is right, but the goal in case of e.g the blog Feminist Frequency is to develope awareness for the player that games are sexiest in the most cases. At this Time, it is not a problem how to solve this issue, first there must be a state of acceptance from all who are involved. But in my opinion it won't happend, if the most players identify thier personalities through playing games which they like the most(it is like you identify yourself with your a favorite musician). Sometimes i have this feeling that the opposition to feminist frequency aren't able confess that computergames need to change, because thier personality is affected by Anita Sarkeesian's provoking theses("WHAT? I'm playing games which portrays genderroles of the 50's? They think i'm sexiest then, this can't be right, i have to prove they are wrong!"). They don't realise that Games are getting more involved in Popculture than ever before. Finally Popculture is the main battleground for feminists and this culture is far beyond emancipation.

btw the word you are looking for isn't SciFi, because it deduces from the words Science and Fiction. Fiction defines something which is only imagination. You are looking for Globalization which is pushed by Information Technology like the World Wide Web and formal routines in Industries because of Applied computer Science and pioniers like Noam Chomskey, Linus Torvalds, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and all the other ones too, plus the Cold War which initialize computer science by companies like IBM. IBM is portrait in Kubrick's classic "2001: A Space Odyssey", which is a mirror of human evolution. This movie is SciFi =P

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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Post by Endoperez » Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:36 pm

Yup, I pretty much agree. Should I continue translating my answers to German?

One reason people can't accept what Anita Sarkeesian is saying is that they don't understand her. She is saying that computer games portray bad gender roles. She isn't saying computer games are bad. She isn't saying computer games are only allowed to have the gender roles approved and accepted by feminists.
Anita sagt, dass Computerspiele porträtieren schlechte Geschlechterrollen. Sie sagt nicht "Computerspiele sind schlecht". Sie sagt nicht "Computerspiele dürfen nur in den Geschlechterrollen von Feministinnen genehmigt und akzeptiert hat".

Some people think games should only be made for gamers (that is, for them!). Because they like the old games, that means developers should only make games that are like the old games. Anything new is bad.



I understood you perfectly, but you had one really small, important mistake there - it's "sexist", not "sexiest".

Sexist comes from the word sexism. As most -ism words, sexism is an ideology, and a sexist person is someone following that ideology.

Sexiest comes from sexy. Sexy, sexier (more sexy), sexiest (the most sexy). Not quite what you meant. :P


I know SciFi means that, and I really meant that we live in a SciFi world. My smart phone has a map, a phone, internet, wikipedia, dictionary, games (= Per Anhalter durch die Galaxis!). There are people with robot arms. Companies are testing robot cars. Countries have cyber hackers in the military attacking targets in different countries. Many people have spent more than a decade in a virtual game (World of Warcraft). Computer games are now eSport, and professionals are famous across the world.
I have seen movies about this world, I have read books about this world. They were fiction. Much of it is now reality. Super! :D

100 years ago I would have had to ride a horse to go to a nearby town to hear the news of what had happened a month ago in Germany.

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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Post by kibaoo » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:03 pm

Doesn't matter, had sex.
no seriously, =D we are both agreeing about the topic.
It is more a Ideology buisness and because of Computergames are an industry nowadays, which concerns more about sales figures than emancipation, projects like Feminist Frequenzy needs solidary support by the people. Some facts or conclusions may be worng but it is the only way to spread awareness. That is why they choose Youtube as thier voice. Some people may argue about Sarkeesians behaviour, that she disabled the commentsection and this classifies her as a "feminazi" or something, but i can fully understand why she did it. Youtube isn't a proper publicly accountable enviroment where people actually have to think before posting thier opinion. The users personality isn't open to the public, because of pseudonyms which don't have to deal with reputations, which is on common basis a hot topic in social, political and scientific affairs. The actual discussion needs the real intellectual enviroment.

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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Post by Endoperez » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:22 pm

Yup, I agree with all of that. :D

There's another problem with this anger directer towards Anita. Since there are so many people who are willing to say anything to prove her wrong, you can't trust anyone who says she is wrong before you have verified why they're saying that. It might be a real issue, or totally made up or some small mistake that isn't a problem at all.

This makes it hard to find good discussion about her videos, anywhere. As you said, there's no intellectual environment, so there's nowhere to have an actual debate... It spreads awareness, which is good, but people need to discuss those ideas. Then, whether they agree or disagree, we get new ideas. New, interesting games, and new, interesting ideas about what games should be.

For example, why is a pink bowtie on a girl-character's head bad? I am a 3D artist, and I agree that it is very lazy. It took me a long time to see why it's a problem. I think it was a whole year!
It's like adding a top hat to every male character to show that they're male, even if they're a warrior in steel armor, or a monstrous alien in a space ship, or a pirate, or a cave man. The top hat is a symbol of a specific sort of man, and making all the men follow that standard would be bad.

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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:20 pm

Gonna respond to both of you.
Since you're both wrong.
Endoperez wrote:
There's another problem with this anger directer towards Anita.
It's been ineffective and a failed effort.
We really should attack her Patreon.
Since there are so many people who are willing to say anything to prove her wrong,
Since staring at her arguments too long will show you how retarded it sounds. Anyone can disprove Anita, I COULD.
you can't trust anyone who says she is wrong before you have verified why they're saying that. It might be a real issue, or totally made up or some small mistake that isn't a problem at all.
Like everything you or Anita have ever brought up against games, it's a small issue that means fuck all and the only way to expand the Eye of Tumblr is to complain anyways.
I'm fucking tired of this, in case you couldn't tell.

This makes it hard to find good discussion about her videos, anywhere.
Not really no.
As you said, there's no intellectual environment,
Social Justice Cultist is evolving!
It now considers itself an intellectual.
Gods fucking help us.
so there's nowhere to have an actual debate...
This is a classic SJW move, claim there is no debate or no argument.
This is Latin for: "I don't want to argue this point."
It spreads awareness, which is good, but people need to discuss those ideas. Then, whether they agree or disagree, we get new ideas. New, interesting games, and new, interesting ideas about what games should be.
I can do this in 4 words:
"Games should be games."
Nope. Nothing special. At all.
For example, why is a pink bowtie on a girl-character's head bad?
Because Anita.
I am a 3D artist, and I agree that it is very lazy. It took me a long time to see why it's a problem. I think it was a whole year!
To realize Anita's full of shit?

It's like adding a top hat to every male character to show that they're male, even if they're a warrior in steel armor, or a monstrous alien in a space ship, or a pirate, or a cave man. The top hat is a symbol of a specific sort of man, and making all the men follow that standard would be bad.
...
kibaoo wrote:Doesn't matter, had sex.
This.
no seriously, =D we are both agreeing about the topic.p
Then this will be is easy as hell.
It is more a Ideology buisness and because of Computergames are an industry nowadays, which concerns more about sales figures than emancipation, projects like Feminist Frequenzy needs solidary support by the people.
I can't understand you for shit. But I'm interpreting this as Feminist Frequency being a good thing and needs the unanimous support of the people regardless of how right or wrong they are.
Wrong.
Wrong.
False.
Wrong.
Some facts or conclusions may be worng but it is the only way to spread awareness.
About a non-issue that only affects women, who need to run over to men and go "No no. You need to pay attention to me again".
That is why they choose Youtube as thier voice.
Wrong. Because you can censor everything and YouTube hasn't been brought down by DDoS attacks in forever. That, and it's popular.
and Some people may argue about Sarkeesians behaviour, that she disabled the commentsection and this classifies her as a "feminazi" or something,
Wrong and more wrong.
1: People rant about Anita's behavior because she jacked your money and now has an army of white knights (Some aren't even gamers) and manginas to defend her, and will never submit to criticism if it doesn't suit her.
2: She's a feminazi because she wants games made her way regardless of what people want or the developer's creative intentions. That means she automatically intersects with my beliefs and is a fucking shithead.
but i can fully understand why she did it.
Because fuck the first Amendment. #Amirite?
Youtube isn't a proper publicly accountable enviroment where people actually have to think before posting thier opinion.
There's that intellectualism again.
The users personality isn't open to the public, because of pseudonyms which don't have to deal with reputations, which is on common basis a hot topic in social, political and scientific affairs.
This matters why?
The actual discussion needs the real intellectual enviroment.
There it is again.

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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Post by Endoperez » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:33 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:
so there's nowhere to have an actual debate...
This is a classic SJW move, claim there is no debate or no argument.
This is Latin for: "I don't want to argue this point."
I argued with you for 5 months! I tried logical arguments, I posted scientific research, I asked for empathy.

That is the opposite of "I don't want to argue".

You ignored it all.

1: People rant about Anita's behavior because she jacked your money and now has an army of white knights (Some aren't even gamers) and manginas to defend her, and will never submit to criticism if it doesn't suit her.
2: She's a feminazi because she wants games made her way regardless of what people want or the developer's creative intentions. That means she automatically intersects with my beliefs and is a fucking shithead.
1. So you are saying she should have not gotten any money, some men agree with her feminist ideas (which makes them bad), and she doesn't change her views even though lots of people tell her she shoul

She has the right to earn money. I am allowed to agree with her. She doesn't have to change her views to suit your tastes.

Are you saying that she, a feminist, is wrong because she should be poor, alone, and do what she's told?


2. "She is a feminazi because she intersects with my beliefs." really? Dude, you are saying she is wrong because you don't believe her.

That means you don't want to argue. You ignore different viewpoints and keep insulting people.

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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Post by kibaoo » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:54 pm

Do you realize that your post shows exactly the need for a public enviroment where people can respond to this topic and argue on a intellectual basis. Youtube or this forum can't offer this, because it's a privat place. I can't tell if u mean this serious or u PheonixWarrior141 are just trolling. Infact i don't change my opinion because i don't care much about shittalking in forums.

btw u should know that the main concern for political and social communication is emancipation, which requires feminism, because emancipation doesn't know genderroles. The channel Feminis Frequenzy is for the people, it is a small bit of education not a hatred manifesto of a feminazi. You have to change ideology first before change the acting. That is why feminists refer to Popculture which tells alot about its society and if u take a close look it is indeed sexist. Men and Women gets simplified to thier genderoles. If Games are geting more emancipated, perhaps a little change comes to Society and your Brain too.
The argument "Games are fine" is just rubish. Games may have the potential becoming as great as Movies. But most of them are just shit and full of genderroles, or just shit and boring... and as it is in Hollywood: Money talks.

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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:18 am

Endoperez wrote:
I argued with you for 5 months!
It was more then that I think
I tried logical arguments,
But your Feminist Gods did not approve so you went back to "DOX. WHINE. BITCH." for Khorne's favor.
Good for you.
I posted scientific research,
I've posted studies in this topic that proved you wrong. That games don't need diversity, so you're wrong by default.
Battle up a 90 degrees hill if you want. I'll be there to push you down.
"ZEAL AND FURY ARE REWARDED WITH VICTORY"
- Anita.
I asked for empathy.
Standard SJW Actions Counter: 1.
That is the opposite of "I don't want to argue".
No but you want to argue on actual grounds since you don't consider this an "Actual" discussion.

You ignored it all.
This shit has consumed hours of my day for the past 5 months. Ignoring it isn't as easy as you'd like to think.

1. So you are saying she should have not gotten any money,
No. Profiting of her work does nothing to help her credibility when she can say whatever she likes and make millions.
some men agree with her feminist ideas (which makes them bad),
For the most part, no. However since the fine "Men" over at Polygon consider themselves feminists and will GLADLY harass a guy over a shirt, I think it's the thing that should be handled with caution.
and she doesn't change her views even though lots of people tell her she shoul
Because they're wrong. But social justice shitheads don't know what that words mean.
[+] SocialJusticeDictionary
1: Toxic
2: Harassment
3: Threaten
4: Rape
5: Privilage
6: Misogyny
7: Sexism
8: Racism
She has the right to earn money.
Doesn't make it right.
Given Hatred's controversy, I'm thinking of making a new fallacy: The Hatred Fallacy: Stating that since thinking something someone did isn't right, you think they shouldn't be allowed to do it.
It's a strain of the strawman.
I am allowed to agree with her.
See above.
She doesn't have to change her views to suit your tastes.
See above.
Are you saying that she, a feminist, is wrong because she should be poor, alone, and do what she's told?
No.

2. "She is a feminazi because she intersects with my beliefs." really? Dude, you are saying she is wrong because you don't believe her.

That means you don't want to argue. You ignore different viewpoints and keep insulting people.
1: This is a strawman. You simplified my argument to make it easy to attack. She's wrong because she's plastering her beliefs on everything.
Some of those intersect with mine, so we have problems.
kibaoo wrote:Do you realize that your post shows exactly the need for a public enviroment where people can respond to this topic and argue on a intellectual basis. Youtube or this forum can't offer this, because it's a privat place.
1: This forum is a public space. Anyone can join for any reason.
2: No, this post doesn't.
I can't tell if u mean this serious or u PheonixWarrior141 are just trolling. Infact i don't change my opinion because i don't care much about shittalking in forums.

btw u should know that the main concern for political and social communication is emancipation,
What?!
Women aren't oppressed you social justice cultist!
which requires feminism, because emancipation doesn't know genderroles.
Contradiction.
The channel Feminis Frequenzy is for the people, it is a small bit of education not a hatred manifesto of a feminazi.
FemFreq's writer has commended stores that ban "sexist" games and wants them ALL gone.
So yes, it is a hatred manifesto of a feminazi. Written by an idiot, performed by a capitalistic idiot, and favored by idiots.
Yay.
You have to change ideology first before change the acting. That is why feminists refer to Popculture which tells alot about its society and if u take a close look it is indeed sexist. Men and Women gets simplified to thier genderoles.
Wrong. We live in a matriarchy if anything. The fact men can't go into sewing circles or book clubs without getting flak but a woman can easily sympathy for sports problems (A mostly male past time) or even join a football team if she tries hard enough. Any sexism is in favor of women if anyone.
If Games are geting more emancipated,
Image
perhaps a little change comes to Society and your Brain too.
Whaaaat?
Image
The argument "Games are fine" is just rubish. Games may have the potential becoming as great as Movies.
Here we go again.
Games should not be art.
End.
But most of them are just shit and full of genderroles,
Image
or just shit and boring...
Image

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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Post by Endoperez » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:56 am

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:
I posted scientific research,
I've posted studies in this topic that proved you wrong. That games don't need diversity, so you're wrong by default.
Battle up a 90 degrees hill if you want. I'll be there to push you down.
"ZEAL AND FURY ARE REWARDED WITH VICTORY"
- Anita.
No, you posted a Youtube video, I checked the original research, the same author's other researched, learned what she was actually saying and thanked you for giving me new information. Compare to how you reacted to me posting research: you randomly insulted me for having posted science, as if it was a bad thing.

The research said players don't need diversity for the reasons usually given.

Also that Anita "quote" might be libel.
Wrong. We live in a matriarchy if anything. The fact men can't go into sewing circles or book clubs without getting flak but a woman can easily sympathy for sports problems (A mostly male past time) or even join a football team if she tries hard enough. Any sexism is in favor of women if anyone.
Feminism has a theory on that:
A man doing sewing is seen as weak (physically and as a person) because he is like a woman.
A woman doing a physically demanding sport is seen as a strong personality because he is like a man.

The problem is female-coded things are traditionally valued less than male-coded things. Feminism tries to change this so that women can be powerful, but also so that men can sew, and be kind and emotional, cry if they want to... and play games that tackle social issues if they want to. Which you oppose as "SJW games".

See also how strong females are told they are too abrasive.

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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:01 pm

Endoperez wrote: No, you posted a Youtube video, I checked the original research, the same author's other researched, learned what she was actually saying and thanked you for giving me new information. Compare to how you reacted to me posting research: you randomly insulted me for having posted science, as if it was a bad thing.

The research said players don't need diversity for the reasons usually given.
Which means I'm right and the SJWs are arguing about a giant non-issue.
Also that Anita "quote" might be libel.
I also looked at a girl yesterday.
Image

Feminism has a theory on that:
A man doing sewing is seen as weak (physically and as a person) because he is like a woman.
A woman doing a physically demanding sport is seen as a strong personality because he is like a man.
So feminism restates the obvious in ways that make it sound intellectual.
Given the current events, that isn't far off.
The problem is female-coded things are traditionally valued less than male-coded things.
Because female coded things are women coming into a dominantly male past-time because it suddenly became "Cool".
Women come in and go "No no. You need to pay attention to us now. And games need to be made our way."
And when men refuse, feminism comes in and throws a bitch-fit.
Feminism tries to change this so that women can be powerful, but also so that men can sew, and be kind and emotional, cry if they want to...
In other words
"I'm gonna swap the current roles so I'm in control and you're the bottom bitches."
Read that a few times and tell me if it comes off any differently.

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Re: Video games have been ruined forever... again!

Post by kibaoo » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:38 pm

You are such a dick, choke on it.

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