Why are many Christians self-contradictory?

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Grayswandir
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Re: Why are many Christians self-contradictory?

Post by Grayswandir » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:07 pm

Chainsaw man wrote:Ugh, we need Cristains here to debait this fairly, as we always come to the same conclusions, and as Athiests we would never lower ourselves to think as they do.
On the flip side, Christians would never lower themselves to think like an Athiest does.
See how that works?

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Kestril
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Re: Why are many Christians self-contradictory?

Post by Kestril » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:09 pm

Assaultman67 wrote:there really is no religion that says "kill the infidels" ...
Yeah, just some text from the Koran:
Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them(2:191)
Make war on the infidels living in your neighboorhood (9:123)
When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)
Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax (9:29)
I'm not saying every Islamic is a terrorist, Just sayin', that's what their book says, but still, you'd think we'd be able to get over some 2,000-year old grudges.

@ Renegade:
I'm christian myself, not that devout or anything. I don't go to church that often, but I do believe in good 'ol JC.

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Re: Why are many Christians self-contradictory?

Post by Assaultman67 » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:31 am

Kestril wrote: Yeah, just some text from the Koran:
Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them(2:191)
Make war on the infidels living in your neighboorhood (9:123)
When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)
Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax (9:29)
I'm not saying every Islamic is a terrorist, Just sayin', that's what their book says, but still, you'd think we'd be able to get over some 2,000-year old grudges.

@ Renegade:
I'm christian myself, not that devout or anything. I don't go to church that often, but I do believe in good 'ol JC.
I was surprised when i saw this ... so i looked it up myself ....

turns the first one was out of context ... (the others might be too, i just didn't look)
And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.

"2.191": And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
The bible has stuff like this too ... (an eye for an eye? a tooth for a tooth?)
Grayswandir wrote:
Chainsaw man wrote:Ugh, we need Cristains here to debait this fairly, as we always come to the same conclusions, and as Athiests we would never lower ourselves to think as they do.
On the flip side, Christians would never lower themselves to think like an Athiest does.
See how that works?
Yea, i was kinda surprised he said that ... kinda insulting to christians :shock:

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Re: Why are many Christians self-contradictory?

Post by Ragdollmaster » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:04 am

Sorry, Colic, that was just bigoted without any precedent. You can't assume yourself to be superior in intellect because of your beliefs. Maybe if you were the one who came up with the theory of evolution, you could feel free to stride into a church and yell "THERE IS NO GOD, I'M BETTER", but note that Darwin didn't do that. Nor any other famously recognized atheist (eg Albert Einstein). And as Gray said, it works the other way, too. Extremely devout Christians have a tendency to think they're Awesome McCool Pants and that all atheists are just misguided lunatics.

The problem with both extremely devout Christians and extremely devout Atheists is that they are all irritatingly dogmatic and infuriatingly unreasonable. End of story. These are the kind of people you shouldn't even try to talk to.

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Re: Why are many Christians self-contradictory?

Post by Renegade_Turner » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:35 am

Kestril wrote:@ Renegade:
I'm christian myself, not that devout or anything. I don't go to church that often, but I do believe in good 'ol JC.
Oh, do you? What's JC?
Assaultman67 wrote:turns the first one was out of context ... (the others might be too, i just didn't look)
Regardless, his point still stands, since you claimed there was no religion which specifically said "kill the infidels", and he found that the Qur'an did.

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Re: Why are many Christians self-contradictory?

Post by Ragdollmaster » Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:05 am

JC = Jesus Christ?

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Re: Why are many Christians self-contradictory?

Post by Renegade_Turner » Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:52 am

Oh right. Blonde moment there. :lol:

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Re: Why are many Christians self-contradictory?

Post by tokage » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:50 pm

Ragdollmaster wrote: [...] any other famously recognized atheist (eg Albert Einstein). [...]
I did a quick search and found that the claim that Albert Einstein was an atheist is highly debatable, he was Jew in origin, never seemed to be too religious, but held the jewish moral values pretty high. There are quotes, that he doesn't believe in a personal god, but also he seemed to have denied to be an atheist. With that information I would distance myself from that claim, what he believed only he knows and we can't ask him anymore.
Renegade_Turner wrote:
Kestril wrote:@ Renegade:
I'm christian myself, not that devout or anything. I don't go to church that often, but I do believe in good 'ol JC.
Oh, do you? What's JC?
Assaultman67 wrote:turns the first one was out of context ... (the others might be too, i just didn't look)
Regardless, his point still stands, since you claimed there was no religion which specifically said "kill the infidels", and he found that the Qur'an did.
I guess you can find these kind of sentences in every religion being big enough to be recognised now, because they rely heavily on proselytization. I am almost sure you can find it in the bible, at least in the part that is shared with the Jews, during the times the israelites conquered their new homeland. The only big world religion I would be surprised to have such sentences would be Buddhism, they seem to be pretty moderate with other religions.

I myself don't believe in god. But my problem with religions is not that they believe in mythical beings. The problem is that a religion always claims their own view of the world as the right one. If that would be really true what about all the other religions. And it is not a question of islam or christians, they share enough similarities that it could be two interpretations of the same thing. What about polytheistic religions like the greek or roman gods? Today believing in something like that just seems ridiculous. At that time it was the most normal in the world. Maybe in 500 years everyone will follow scientology (I doubt it, but who knows). That is the problem.
Science based belief has inherently a principle of theories that are backed with experiments and if they are not backed they have to be revised, they can grow with the knowledge. Science takes different views of the world in account and choose the most adequate.

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Re: Why are many Christians self-contradictory?

Post by Glabbit » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:30 pm

Gandhi wrote:I like your Christ.
I do not like you Christians.
They are so unlike your Christ.

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Re: Why are many Christians self-contradictory?

Post by Assaultman67 » Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:49 pm

Renegade_Turner wrote:
Assaultman67 wrote:turns the first one was out of context ... (the others might be too, i just didn't look)
Regardless, his point still stands, since you claimed there was no religion which specifically said "kill the infidels", and he found that the Qur'an did.
fair enough ... the Qur'an says "kill the infidels" ... there are just a few restrictions as to when that can happen :P ... like when they are being killed/attacked themselves ...

but you and i both know that when someone says "kill the infidels!" it generally isn't understood as "I plan on defending myself!" :P ... most people think of it more as "slay the innocent!"

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Re: Why are many Christians self-contradictory?

Post by TheBigCheese » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:24 pm

invertin wrote:I AM ANGRY NOW

AAARRGGHHHH

TIME IS NOT THE FOURTH DIMENSION

IT IS NOT A DIMENSION AT ALL

DIMENSIONS ARE DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS THAT YOU CAN MEASURE SOMETHING IN, E.G HEIGHT, LENGTH

TIME IS NOT A DIRECTION

YOU CAN PUT TWO OBJECTS NEXT TO EACHOTHER TO MAKE THE TOTAL SIZE TALLER OR LONGER OR SOMETHING, BUT YOU CAN'T PUT TWO OBJECTS TOGETHER TO MAKE THEM TIMIER

THE HYPERCUBE IS A FOUR DIMENSIONAL OBJECT, IT DOES NOT TRAVEL THROUGH TIME
Arg. People keep pulling me back to retort. :P

Watch the video I posted at 3:00.

You could say that it is impossible to make things 'timier', but that is only because we see the world in 3 dimensions. We don't see the world in 4 all at one time, in fact, it is impossible. However, just as 3d is an infinite number of flat instances of a 2d plane (You have to agnowledge that), you can say 4d time is just a vast number of instances of a 3d world.

If you viewed the world in 4 dimensions, you would see everything all at once overlapping each other (only overlapping in the 3d sense).

"Wait!" "How can everything possibly be like that? You can't just view time all at once!"
Ah, but you yourself would also be 4 dimensional, so you would have some way of maneuvering through all the instances of the 3d world, moving through the 5th dimension as though it were time (maybe, not sure on that). I can't think much further that this, it's too hard to imagine the 5th dimension.

And as for the hypercubes. Hypercubes are just a 3 dimensional representation of a 4 dimensional cube.
Wikipedia wrote: Image
A projection of a tesseract (into three dimensional space)
I honestly really don't quite understand the logic of this (I'm not a physicist), but I can guess that a 4 dimensional cube (in 4 dimensional space) would have to have each vertex of the cube be connected to 4 other vertices all at right angles, meaning that it would be folded in upon itself (a normal 3d cube has only 3 connections at right angles). The images in 3d space are merely the projections into 3d space.

Maybe that made sense, it's a bit difficult to explain. The video explains it very well if you watch it through.

On religion,
I'm going to say that in a century, most of religion will be no longer practiced. Numbers of church goers are becoming increasingly low, mostly being the older generations, so given a hundred years, it will be gone.

Obviously, you can see I take the scientific approach. :D

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Re: Why are many Christians self-contradictory?

Post by Renegade_Turner » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:21 pm

Lol the primary problem I have with Islam is its ties to these backwards Arabic countries. People in Arabic countries are forced to adhere to such bizarre rules, such as the perception that shaving your beard is a sin, and that women are not entitled to an equal education. I could keep going, but I don't see the point, what I've already said is enough to make me WTF.

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Re: Why are many Christians self-contradictory?

Post by Mashandar » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:34 am

Here's my views.

As others have said, humanity in general is self-contradictory, most people do self contradictory things all the time and never realise it.

Everyone should be allowed to believe whatever the hell it is they want, as long as they don't hurt others, even if it is self-contradictory (or not). such is our freedom.

time is a dimension. it can be measured just as width, height and depth can be.
we are unable to properly perceive the 4th dimension however,
being, so called, 3rd dimensional beings (we can move throughout 3 dimensions)

I'll mention it again, there's are just my views and opinion.

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Re: Why are many Christians self-contradictory?

Post by invertin » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:03 am

A temporal dimension is a dimension of time. Time is often referred to as the "fourth dimension" for this reason, but that is not to imply that it is a spatial dimension. A temporal dimension is one way to measure physical change. It is perceived differently from the three spatial dimensions in that there is only one of it, and that we cannot move freely in time but subjectively move in one direction.
So if I'm reading this correctly, time is a dimension, but not the kind of dimension I'm talking about.

Back to christianity. The only christian I know that was self-contradictory about his beliefs noticed the self-contradictions and was disillusioned slightly. He's still a christian, but now his beliefs about christianity have changed entirely.

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Re: Why are many Christians self-contradictory?

Post by TheBigCheese » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:56 am

invertin wrote:So if I'm reading this correctly, time is a dimension, but not the kind of dimension I'm talking about.
Personally, I don't see why time couldn't be a spacial dimension. We see in 3 dimensions, so to us it would not look like one.

A person viewing only in 2 dimensions would not be able to perceive the third dimension. The same theory applies.

Same as what Masandar said:
time is a dimension. it can be measured just as width, height and depth can be.
we are unable to properly perceive the 4th dimension however,
being, so called, 3rd dimensional beings (we can move throughout 3 dimensions)

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