Wolfire Games Forums

I'd like to read that, Roland.

Nerodx, you reminded me of an interesting historical point -
The standard voting age was 21 until reform in the 1970s, when it was lowered to 18 in many countries. [1] Adulthood is considered to be roughly 18 these days, since - at least in the States - it's when one becomes eligible to vote and is tried as an adult in the court system.
Supposedly, a major motivation behind the drop - again, at least in the States, according to my recollection - was that eligibility for compulsory military service started at 18, before the person was eligible to vote on the matter. We were sending young men over to fight wars they had no say in.

In this light, the drinking age appears archaic at 21.

Personally, I like the coming-of-age number of 20 for voting, drinking, and smoking - as they do in Japan - probably due to a neurotic need to have nice, even numbers.

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Water can kill you, too. [1]
Should it be illegalized, as well?

What basis do you have to categorically call an entire substance "bad"? Ill health effects, I'm assuming. In which case, I must point you towards these articles, on the positive health benefits of light drinking:
BBC: Alcohol 'protects men's hearts'
Wikipedia: Alcohol & Longevity

There are a plethora of cases where a toxin or poison results in positive health benefits with small doses.
Additionally, I know of at least one toxic gas that, with a sufficiently high dose, can potentially save lives. [2]

It's all a matter of understanding, usage, and correct dosage.

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I'd say 18 - feed your babies vodka and they'll grow up to be astrophysicists I'm sure, not to mention the psychological side of it.

Prohibition doesn't work, see "The Prohibition"

Hmmm... Suppose we could chuck out the age system all together, and use different system, like a mental health system instead? I don't think age is the issue, its the level of matureness and level of sanity / mental stability. I think reprogramming and education are what mater's here. I realize now I have an addictive personality, and I have gotten into a habit, In time I will wheedle it out.

Most of my Friends refuse to have young children around there place when we plan to have piss at a party for this reason:
May I introduce the Human Battering ram!

...

It takes a long time to reprogram sociality into something better, Education, and perseverance, this add has been on TV so much I make jokes on it.

Chainsaw man wrote:Hmmm... Suppose we could chuck out the age system all together, and use different system, like a mental health system instead? I don't think age is the issue, its the level of matureness and level of sanity / mental stability.

I think that's a rather foolish viewpoint, to be honest. You might say that some 18-year-olds are more mentally mature than some 21-year-olds, but the fact of the matter is that in general people hit a peak of maturity at around 20/21.

This is not to say each person's peak of maturity will be the same, obviously, as each person will differ. It is simply a safeguard, if you will, to ensure that the vast majority of the people are able to make a calculated decision at such an age. I think it's pretty much a given that on average 21-year-olds would be more mature than 18-year-olds, is it not?

Saying that age has no bearing whatsoever is a bit silly. Then you could argue that a certain 11-year-old is more able to weigh the risks and consequences of drinking than a certain 21-year-old, and although that can't be proven or disproven, by an educated guess we can say that it's almost impossible in terms of likelihood.

I will say that once a person gets to around the age of 20/21 it does get a bit shady, as it's hard to say whether or not a person grows too much in terms of maturity after then. It is useful to consider that around the age of 20 is when one reaches their peak of physical maturity. Does anyone know much about the formation of the part of the brain which allows us to make calculated decisions based on our environment and society, i.e. which enables us to act maturely?

Regarding brain maturation, if I recall correctly, the last phase involves binding connections between the pre-frontal cortex backwards to the rest of the brain, which occurs between the ages of 20-24.

Renegade Turner makes a valid point regarding the utility of age as the factor to determine ability. A legal system would prefer to use a hard, undeniable fact such as age as opposed to a soft, nebulous abstract such as "mental maturity/stability/responsibility."
It reeks of ageism, but since maturity/responsibility is inexorably tied to cognitive development, and cognitive development is determined by physiological development, and physiological development is a time-dependent function, age makes for an adequate predictor of maturity/responsibility.

I'm a fan of elitism by intelligence and ability - technocracies and meritocracies - but since it would be far easier and cheaper to use age, I can approve of it.

How would someone be able to determine their mental stability/maturity? As far as I know theres no technology that could do something on that scale but I could very well be wrong. Would some kind of test be a possibility? That would never work in my opinion, too easy for someone to cheat or get around it. If we go off of higher educations, then those who achieved their education might just destroy it all by succumbing to addictions, so no more doctors, or scientists, or any other jobs which probably shouldn't be using alcohol or drugs in the first place. Plus it would be inconveniant to have to check every single person for identification saying they can have alcohol. With age it's more easy to tell simply with your eyes, much harder to tell maturity. I just can't see this working at all, although maybe if it could be worked out it might work better than our system.

nerodx wrote:Plus it would be inconveniant to have to check every single person for identification saying they can have alcohol.

This type of logic needs to be avoided. Checking an ID takes at most 10-15 seconds. The lawsuit you'll probably face if a 16-year-old is drinking illegally on your premises is sufficiently major to constitute taking 10-15 seconds to check such people for ID.

Yea your right, it was just a thought.
Its kinda hard to obtain total domination on what people in our world pump into themselves.
I dont supose we just push all our human filth into a pit, occasionally chucking down food and more substance for them to consume, granting people who are a particular % clean back to our world... Wait isn't that a Cyber Punk Ghetto of some kind?

Push out those who don't want to be cured into the Fells of this Underworld and close the boarders.
Let the Filth take the choice of living with Hydroponics grown weed and Let them destroy themselves in conflict.

Talking about this dose help change the world for the better, but so long as we can come up with a good cure for our world.

Fournine wrote:Water can kill you, too. [1]
Should it be illegalized, as well?

Way to overstate a point there, Fournine

Arguably, water isn't addictive in the same sense that drugs are, and it's a lot harder to will yourself into overdosing on it. I know about that woman who drank loads of water to win a Wii in some competition, but what other times are you going to drink that amount? It's not really a parralel for cannabis or alchol.

Water is more than addictive, it's necessary to live. And people can over-consume water without being forced to. A good example is when someone who exercises vigorously - thus sweating and excreting their electrolytes - and drinks copious amounts of water instead of drinking or eating something that would restore balance.

The point, however, was that it's all about dose, and that substances that are more common than alcohol and tobacco can kill with an excess dose.

I love the ridiculous water argument, reminds me of:

classic. That whole movie rules.