Why waste time, money (and lives) on the Mideast?

Anything else
User avatar
Untadaike
Posts: 1660
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:46 pm
Contact:

Why waste time, money (and lives) on the Mideast?

Post by Untadaike » Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:24 pm

Let me just pass on some facts:

The United States government spends at least 165 MILLION dollars on the war effort per day.

The invasion occurred under President George Bush on March 20th, 2003, a Thursday.

That means we have been at war, constant war, for 2440 days.

If you do the math, the absolute minimum money spent is 402,600,000,000 dollars, on keeping those countries under constant war, destitution, drug dependency and terror. What kind of person would look at that figure and not feel anger? Anger towards the US administration and towards administrations past? THINK of the things that they could fix in the country, health care and hunger, and obviously the list goes on.

Let me put it another way:
the number dead from the war has been squelched and concealed by the military. As a matter of fact, quoting one of the United States generals, "We don't do body counts". WTF? BUT, due to a recent study by an organization called Just Foreign Policy, over 1 MILLION Iraqis have died since the invasion, not counting Americans. Read above to be reminded of their noble cause that they have died for.

And now President Obama is considering (and being pressured by the military) to send 40,000 troops into the Mideast. Another WTF, please. WTF?

Today, however, across the United States hundreds of people are resorting to activism and utilizing their democratic rights, and rightly so. They are calling their representatives and urging them to immediately recall troops from Afghanistan! Bring 'em home! Isn't 8 years more than enough war? We've got our own problems to fix. We should say tell them, "let us know when you're serious and we'll come and help" and then hightail it. Peace is patriotic.
Last edited by Untadaike on Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
zoidberg rules
Posts: 1788
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:44 pm
Location: here, there everywhere...behind you!

Re: Why waste time, money (and lives) on the Mideast?

Post by zoidberg rules » Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:33 pm

bush was a bit of an asshole when he started that war, and as usual, phony blair just started licking his ass and joining in, we have wasted the lives of literally hundreds of good men in that bloody country and i say, pull out and let it tear itself apart, then help to rebuild afterwards

User avatar
TheBigCheese
Posts: 856
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:01 am
Location: Lost in the Alps.

Re: Why waste time, money (and lives) on the Mideast?

Post by TheBigCheese » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:12 pm

I think you need to check you math on that one. :?


I think really the problem is that we are too far invested in building the Middle East to pull out.
zoidberg rules wrote:bush was a bit of an asshole when he started that war
I guarantee you that 90% of the US wanted to go to war after 9/11. What people don't realize is the actual responsibilities of war, and that it's not a "go beat the bad guys and come home for supper" kind of deal.

User avatar
kehaar
Posts: 696
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:51 am
Location: Trapped under a cat
Contact:

Re: Why waste time, money (and lives) on the Mideast?

Post by kehaar » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:57 pm

TheBigCheese wrote:I think you need to check you math on that one. :?


I think really the problem is that we are too far invested in building the Middle East to pull out.
zoidberg rules wrote:bush was a bit of an asshole when he started that war
I guarantee you that 90% of the US wanted to go to war after 9/11. What people don't realize is the actual responsibilities of war, and that it's not a "go beat the bad guys and come home for supper" kind of deal.

User avatar
kehaar
Posts: 696
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:51 am
Location: Trapped under a cat
Contact:

Re: Why waste time, money (and lives) on the Mideast?

Post by kehaar » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:21 pm

TheBigCheese wrote:I think you need to check you math on that one. :?


I think really the problem is that we are too far invested in building the Middle East to pull out.
zoidberg rules wrote:bush was a bit of an asshole when he started that war
I guarantee you that 90% of the US wanted to go to war after 9/11. What people don't realize is the actual responsibilities of war, and that it's not a "go beat the bad guys and come home for supper" kind of deal.
a "BIT" of an asshole: I'm going to go with "Worst U.S. President" in a fairly competitive field of Assholes, and outright winner in "Worst Foreign Policy Blunder" category. Let's hope the next 30 years proves me wrong.

On second thought, having someone beat that sounds terrifying, so I'll re-phrase that to: "I hope it doesn't turn out as bad as we all expect it to."

As for 90%, that sounds bit high. There were many very loud voices warning about quagmires a la' Vietnam, and the Bush gang put in many months of diligent, coordinated lying, political arm twisting and obfuscation to ram it through. They all worked so hard to make it happen, and their efforts should be acknowledged! Way to go, team. A painful cancer death for each of you, and soon. :wink:

Now how to get out of it? Who the hell knows? It was arson of a building we are locked inside. Still astounded anyone let's Dick speak on any topic for any reason, or publishes what he says.

User avatar
Untadaike
Posts: 1660
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:46 pm
Contact:

Re: Why waste time, money (and lives) on the Mideast?

Post by Untadaike » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:19 am

TheBigCheese wrote:I think you need to check you math on that one.
Yeah, sorry, I got mixed up with the numbers. Lol, that would be sick if what I wrote were true. Fixed.

User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Why waste time, money (and lives) on the Mideast?

Post by Endoperez » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:52 am

Untadaike wrote:THINK of the things that they could fix in the country, health care and hunger, and obviously the list goes on.
I thought that was what they were doing in Iraq, besides trying to tackle poverty and help rebuild the country after the war and actually quite a lot of other "things they could fix".

Your healthcare problems in the US are that people may lose all their money if they get sick, and can't get the proper medicines and treatments. Iraqi doctors "perform operations without basic supplies of disinfectant and anaesthesia", father of newborn child has to go to the black market to find some vitamin K, many of the US-funded new hospitals are still unfinished, etc etc.
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=14290

Even if those stories are worse than the norm, how can you think that there's LESS need for healthcare in Iraq, than in US?
Bring 'em home! Isn't 8 years more than enough war? We've got our own problems to fix. We should say tell them, "let us know when you're serious and we'll come and help" and then hightail it. Peace is patriotic.
Please read the bolded part of your quote again. What would an Iraqi think reading that? What if it was your civil war, and all someone had to say was "you're not even serious, try again". That's the kind of stuff that gets quoted on the "people are stupid" blogs, videos, bash.org, and so on.

If you use the 1 million Iraqis who've died since the invasion in your argument, also consider how many would die if the US troops just disappeared. There's no easy solution. Probably there never was. Personally, I think the people who advocate for fast, "clean", drastic solutions to conflicts like these, just don't know what they're talking about. If someone has a solution and he manages to achieve it, he probably gets a Nobel prize a decade later, if the solution holds.

User avatar
m3nace
Posts: 406
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:00 am

Re: Why waste time, money (and lives) on the Mideast?

Post by m3nace » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:25 am

all your oil are belong to U.S

just saying
I'm not an american but I can see the point in helping the people in Afghanistan, if we could eventually stabilize these countries forever, i think it would be very satisfying.

User avatar
Untadaike
Posts: 1660
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:46 pm
Contact:

Re: Why waste time, money (and lives) on the Mideast?

Post by Untadaike » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:39 am

But don't you see? We're not helping them. The "American hero" that lives in so much of our media is a lie. While our country is so fucked up, why do we have our army a thousand miles away blowing the shit out of random people they think are enemies. At the beginning of the war, it was almost like Vietnam all over again. It's horrible, and now it's even worse. And I do see how many of the American people have died. That's why we need to get them out.

edit: okay, we just have a difference of opinion. sorry, didn't mean to start any flaming. i'll stop here. :)

User avatar
shadow717
Posts: 453
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:28 am
Location: Hunting down Andy.
Contact:

Re: Why waste time, money (and lives) on the Mideast?

Post by shadow717 » Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:14 pm

I personally believe this topic shouldn't exist period. With that being said, I don't disagree with the war in Iraq, I disagree with how it's being handled. We've done too much meddling to pull out, and as a result Americans will probably be in that country for the next couple decades rebuilding. Now that that's out of the way, we are improving the conditions for the people there, and things are getting better for (some) of them.

User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Why waste time, money (and lives) on the Mideast?

Post by Endoperez » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:33 pm

Untadaike wrote:But don't you see? We're not helping them. The "American hero" that lives in so much of our media is a lie. While our country is so fucked up, why do we have our army a thousand miles away blowing the shit out of random people they think are enemies. At the beginning of the war, it was almost like Vietnam all over again. It's horrible, and now it's even worse. And I do see how many of the American people have died. That's why we need to get them out.

edit: okay, we just have a difference of opinion. sorry, didn't mean to start any flaming. i'll stop here. :)
Wow, that's a nonsensical post.
1) "we're not helping" - leaving will be even worse

2) American hero - here in Finland, I'd only see it if I watched movies

3) "our country is fucked up" - yeah, but it's also the richest. at least clean up after yourself.
4) "our army is away" - 150 thousand people in Iraq, out of an army of 1 500 000... boo hoo, that only leaves you the third or fourth biggest army in the world
5) "blowing shit up" - they're trying to stop that happening

6) "like Vietnam" - the beginning of the war was just a show of US superiority in optimal tank terrain. It took, what, two months? The problems only started afterwards, and there's very little in common between the situations except the fact that the enemy doesn't fight face-to-face.

I agree that it was horrible, and is horrible now, but I disagree with almost all of your claims and facts. Some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_1of_c ... _of_troops
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... index.html

See how many countries could send 150 000 soldiers for peacekeeping duty. See how many of them are already otherwise occupied. No easy answers.

P.S.
I don't know which is more horrible: the current situation, where people die daily, or the fact that the US just disregarded most of the rest of the world and invaded another country. It set a really scary precedent.

User avatar
nerodx
confused couch potato
Posts: 987
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:20 am
Location: Cleveland (We're not Detroit!)
Contact:

Re: Why waste time, money (and lives) on the Mideast?

Post by nerodx » Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:07 pm

Going to Iraq was a bad decision. It may have seemed good at the time but now everything has completely gone to hell. We can't leave now though, think of the repercussions of doing that so suddenly, the Middle East could collapse entirely and all we have done would have been for nothing. There's nothing we can really do about it. I DO support the war in Afghanistan though, seeing as that seems to be where Osama bin Laden actually is. THAT is who we really need to stop. I'm okay with the prolonging the war so long as we can actually do something about him,and going to the correct country this time might be just a bit more productive... Then again, Afghanistan is supposed to be the most difficult place in the world to conquer, so it might still be tough to even find just one group.
And if I hear one more person say "lolol just nuke the sand monkeys guize!" I'm going to lose hope in my country all together. I hear that shit way to often.

User avatar
Untadaike
Posts: 1660
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:46 pm
Contact:

Re: Why waste time, money (and lives) on the Mideast?

Post by Untadaike » Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:08 am

2,976 people died in 9/11 (6,000+ wounded). That number is insignificant to the number of lives gone because of this fighting. War isn't working. When are our leaders going to start figuring that out?

And I'm not a political speaker or an essay formatting teacher, I'm a 15 year old high school student who is in fact not brainwashed by their parents or the media or anything else (Not saying any of you are.) And at the same time I refuse to follow this ridiculous authoritarian dogma that our government weaves of lies, defending their outright criminal actions.

George Bush should not have received a applause and a hand down, he should have been put where he can do no harm to anyone. It's the same for the rest; Nixon, Reagon, Bush Snr, Eisenhower...

But it's nice to know that there are others that think the war isn't good, at least. Or you at least agree that we're not doing a good job of it.

User avatar
zoidberg rules
Posts: 1788
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:44 pm
Location: here, there everywhere...behind you!

Re: Why waste time, money (and lives) on the Mideast?

Post by zoidberg rules » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:31 am

m3nace wrote:i think it would be very satisfying.
i think it would be as satisfying as shitting in the face of a russian ultra-nationalist soldier...

fun and very satisfying, until the bastard blows you the hell up.

long story short, it would be good if we could help the country become self-sufficient again, but there is too much resistance at the moment ot make it practical

User avatar
TheBigCheese
Posts: 856
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:01 am
Location: Lost in the Alps.

Re: Why waste time, money (and lives) on the Mideast?

Post by TheBigCheese » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:36 pm

Untadaike wrote:2,976 people died in 9/11 (6,000+ wounded). That number is insignificant to the number of lives gone because of this fighting. War isn't working. When are our leaders going to start figuring that out?
You've got it backwards. Like I said before, yes, only 3,000 people died in 9/11, but do you remember the huge outcry for war by the people? If there's one thing that really bugs me about people of the modern era is that, for lack of anyone else, they blame the leaders for all of the faults of the world. By this I mean saying things like, "I can't afford health insurance, so it's obviously the governments fault for not providing it". It's just idiotic.
And I'm not a political speaker or an essay formatting teacher, I'm a 15 year old high school student who is in fact not brainwashed by their parents or the media or anything else (Not saying any of you are.) And at the same time I refuse to follow this ridiculous authoritarian dogma that our government weaves of lies, defending their outright criminal actions.
How can you say that? You can't imagine the irony calling the American government an authoritarian, criminal government, compared to the rest of the world. There is nothing authoritarian about the American government. Okay, great, we're in a war. The entire army is staffed by volunteers; no one is forced to serve in the Middle East.

Since when is war a crime? Think about it for a minute. If it's a crime, it's a crime that's been committed constantly for the past 3000 years. It's a crime that's saved Europe from the genocide of millions of Jews. It's a crime that liberated the entirety of America from European control.

Sure, no one enjoys being in a war, but there's not much you can do about it. What exactly would you have expected from Bush during 9/11? How do you think the population would have reacted if he just made an announcement telling terrorists, "don't do it again"?

To take a quote from Fallout, "War, war never changes".



(As you can tell, I'm quite opinionated on the subject. :P )

Post Reply