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Renegade_Turner
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Re:

Post by Renegade_Turner » Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:26 pm

Zhukov wrote:Besides, your assumption, while reasonable, is not entirely accurate.
I like Mirror's Edge. Mirror's Edge does not involve a fantasy or futuristic setting.
I like Penumbra. Penumbra does not involve a fantasy or futuristic setting.
I like Left 4 Dead. Left 4 Dead does not involve a fantasy or futuristic setting.
Mirror's Edge is not futuristic? lol. Sure it isn't. You don't need hovercars for things to be futuristic.

Also, Penumbra has supernatural things going on in it. Maybe not magic per se but isn't there some sort of bodiless mind or an evil spirit named something-or-other like Charlie or something which possesses that dude? That's some pretty fantasy-sounding shit right there.

"Fantasy is a genre that uses magic and other supernatural forms as a primary element of plot, theme, and/or setting. Many works within the genre take place on fictional planes or planets where magic is common...blah blah blah."

Zhukov wrote:Oh? So you're saying that setting is an important aspect of the theme? Y'know, as in the entire point I've been trying to make in regards to this "medieval SWAT" business.
That has nothing to do with the point you were making. You were making the point that the game could exist in a different setting. No, it really couldn't. The theme bit was a completely different point altogether.

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Re: Guy seeks game.

Post by Endoperez » Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:32 pm

Nooo! My post was destroyed...

The whole argument is baseless. The theme you're arguing about is more like the bare essentials of the idea and/or the theme without any of the defining details. Looking for something more concrete to argue with, people have started to draw more and more facts about the theme from the SWAT game, whose theme (which probably IS dull) is much more specific and much harder to argue against.


"Cops vs hostage-takers in modern urban environment" is absurdly vague. Batman: Arkham Asylum is basically that, except that the urban environment has lots of gargoyles.

More on Batman. Batman: Year One has another good example of why such a vague "theme" isn't actually a theme at all. A SWAT team (or equivalent) is ready to storm in to a building where a crazy guys holds a gun to the head of his child-hostage. Bloodshed is expected. Gordon arrives, makes a show of putting his gone away, and goes in alone.

The "SWAT goes into a building in a city to kill hostage-takers" could be a dull FPS theme.

The "hero cop enters a building, hoping to come up with a way to save the hostages" could be an interesting theme for a game that borrows heavily from Hitman.





"Modern urban environment" is even worse. Which city? Tokyo vs Hong Kong vs New York vs Johannesburg? Tokyo is so full of people just shooting a gun at random will probably cause a casualty. The disreputable Hong Kong of old movies could be reimagined and modernized, and it'd be just as "modern urban environment" as the Hong Kong we actually have. Johannesburg held international soccer championship games, but as many as 20% of its population live in extreme poverty.


The medieval version of the discussed theme wouldn't be "SWAT vs hostage-takers in medieval urban environment", btw, but "cops vs hostage-takers in medieval urban environment". Police forces didn't exist back then, but hostages were common and you could replace cops with a military order and all would be fine. The missions would be longer and more complex, and about getting into an enemy city, establishing an escape route, getting access to the dungeons somehow, and then hopefully getting away with the crown prince or whoever.
That happens to follow the theme of "police-like military order vs hostage-takers in medieval urban environment" to the T, in case you didn't notice.

Even "SWAT vs hostage-takers who threaten to kill their hostages in a matter of hours unless their demands are met in medieval urban environment" (which is what people seemed to be arguing about) could be done in several different ways. There's SWAT teams being sent to the past to change history, criminals taking hostages in the real world and using time machines to escape into different times or timelines (basically an excuse to have SWAT teams storming castles, pyramids, ziggurats etc), SWAT version of the Swiss Guard going into the past to fight crime with weapons that won't look out-of-place but have been improved with modern technology, etc etc.

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Post by Zhukov » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:26 pm

Renegade_Turner wrote:Mirror's Edge is not futuristic? lol. Sure it isn't.
<snip>
Also, Penumbra has supernatural things going on in it.
<snip>
"Fantasy is a genre that uses magic and other supernatural forms as a primary element of plot, theme, and/or setting. Many works within the genre take place on fictional planes or planets where magic is common...blah blah blah."
Okay, that's actually a fair point. Apparently I really do like my games to have an element of the fantastical/futuristic in them.

Which is why I find SWAT 4's theme so painfully dull.
Renegade_Turner wrote:
Zhukov wrote:Oh? So you're saying that setting is an important aspect of the theme? Y'know, as in the entire point I've been trying to make in regards to this "medieval SWAT" business.
That has nothing to do with the point you were making. You were making the point that the game could exist in a different setting. No, it really couldn't. The theme bit was a completely different point altogether.
That has everything to do with the point that I was making. It is the point that I was making.

*sigh*

Allow me to summarize: Setting is (or at least, can be) an important part of the overall theme. A drastic change in the setting of a game (like, oh, say, taking a SWAT game and setting it in the middle ages) would require an equally drastic change to the theme (like, say, the inclusion of time travel or some such).

That's all I'm trying to say here.

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