All Points Bulletin

[Blorx]

I know I mentioned it in a post somewhere, but it didn't have its own thread.

June 29th release date. Unfortunately, whereas they said forever that they'd have a unique payment model that didn't require a subscription, only the former half was true. There's still a subscription.

Needless to say, I'm disappointed. I might get over it if they go through with adding turf wars, though. Plus, $7/20h of game time isn't all bad for the player that may not play 20 hrs in one month.

Source.

[Ragdollmaster]

Is that the new GTA-clone MMO? I saw a video of it, looked pretty sweet.

The payment model looks like it could run up quite a pretty penny, but at the same time, it makes sense- monthly payments etc usually mean that some people play the hell out of a game and only pay a little bit while others only get an hour or two and pay the same amount as the first group. This way, you pay for what you play. Very smart, but I think it'll make players a bit uneasy about buying it and buying more hours. I'm definitely not buying it for that sole reason- I already get free online for any console games I want to play, and I don't feel like APB is good enough to warrant me paying so much for playing it.

In a literal way, it's pretty nonsensical, like buying a car and then going to the dealership to pay additional money whenever you drive 10 miles or something. I already have the game, now I have to pay to play it? Sheesh!

[Dudeman]

The monthly price is still 9.99, which is better than many other MMOs out there.

[Ragdollmaster]

WHOA, WAIT.

There's a monthly price in addition to paying to play?

Utter bullshit. Any slight notion I might have had for getting this game just went out the window. You can have one or the other, but both is just unfair. I'm sure there are enough over-indulged teens out there that can convince their parents to get them this, but it sounds like the fastest money drainer ever invented.

[zoidberg rules]

sounds like fun to me, few problems though

1) no moneez
2) pc cant game
3) with the release date being my 16th bday, i has other stuffs to be doing

still, might look into it one day though

woah EDIT: just realised the monthly pay + ptp, NOT GETTING NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER!!!!

[Renegade_Turner]

No you idiots, it's either-or. You pick one, not both. You can either pay $9.99 for 30 days unlimited gameplay, or $7 for 20 hours.

Once the 50-hours are up, players have flexibility: top up their game time from as little as SRP $6.99 (£5.59, €6.29) for an additional 20 hours, or opt to purchase a 30-day unlimited package for only SRP $9.99 (£7.99, €8.99) with discounts available for 90 and 180 days. In addition to this flexible payment model, players can also earn game time by actually playing the game. APB provides avenues for accomplished gamers or creators to earn rewards for their creativity and subsidize their ongoing costs with their in-game efforts.

Notice the "or" between the two options? Also, notice how it says "flexible payment model"? It means it's giving you the choice to pick the one that suits you best rather than saying "This is our only offer, take it or leave it."

I don't see how this can be seen as a bad thing? All MMO games have subscriptions don't they? Except Runescape because it sucks dick.

[Ragdollmaster]

There are plenty of free, no-subscription-required MMO games out there- sure, not all of them are good, but plenty of them kept me occupied for months on end (eg Conquer Online, Knight Online, etc)

The either-or option is much more reasonable, but I'm still never getting any type of game that makes you pay to play, whether it's by the hour or by the month :v It can't possibly be worth it when I have a plethora of multiplayer console games I can play for free anytime I want after the initial purchase.

[Blorx]

It's much cheaper than WoW and there are still, to this day, over 12 million people worldwide that pay monthly for WoW, so that's testament to something.

The thing with MMOs is that you're not just paying a single game price for a reason: MMOs are meant to evolve. Paying for an MMO is supposed to be equivalent in some way to paying for a new game each month, except that it's in the same setting. Essentially, rather than paying $60 a month to play the same reskinned FPS with a new gimmick every month, you're paying that same amount of cash to play that same MMO with an equivalent amount of new content every 6 months or so. Well, if it's a good MMO, it'll be that way at least.

I will willingly pay monthly for an MMO whether or not I have to pay for the box, granted it's good. Any good MMO will have a plethora of content that will last you close to 1000 hours out of the box. Add all the content updates onto that and you've got plenty more value paying for one MMO at $10 a month for 10 years (~$1250, correct?) than you do paying for a new game every month for that ten years.

Math behind it:

The average game (excluding RPGs) is about 10 hours nowadays. The hitch is usually a good multiplayer component, and more often than not, the multiplayer will fall flat on its face.

Given this, you're essentially paying $60 for one 10 hour game. $60 once every 6 months for 10 years, 60 x 20 = 1200. 10 x 20 = 200. Remember, this is assuming you're only buying one game new every 6 months that's not an RPG and that has bad/no multiplayer.

Then you have the average MMORPG. Out of box, it's around 500-1000 hours of content. Right there, you've pretty much beat your gaming times.

Given this, you're paying $[50 + (10 x Y)] for anywhere from twice to 5x the amount of content. So, given that you buy a single MMO and pay for it for 10 years (unlikely, but still), you have [50 + (10 x 20)] = 1250. Take note that this monthly fee often includes access to content packs for free. The average free content pack will give another 200 hours of play, so you have your already 1000 hours plus 200 times however many content packs there are.

This is why MMO pricing isn't really a big deal to me. I'd rather pay for an MMO, honestly, and with different races/classes, and a plethora of paths you can take in the game, you've got playtime x times starting a new character to deal with, as well.

A huge fault with WoW, other than its generally boring gameplay, is that it also has content packs that you have to pay for. I don't approve of that at all. You paid $50, you're paying monthly, you should be able to get content packs for free.

Lastly, I want to cover this. Most MMOs come with a 30 day sub straight out of box and over half of them have 2 week or longer trials. If you like the game, pay for it. If not, chances are you got more playtime out of it than you did quite a few other games.

Anyways, just combating the bitching about pricing.

[Ragdollmaster]

Really? Because, most MMOs devolve into grindfests. Literally just click-scavenge-levelup-repeat. If you find that kind of thing fun, sure, I guess MMO's can occupy your time- but what's the difference between grinding and between pasting a WoW GUI over Minesweeper? You can add all of the content that you want, but MMOs all remain essentially the same. They're not anywhere close to "new games" over time, they basically just get mods added to them. Content updates are available for almost every multiplayer console game available, mind.

Also; why wouldn't this get as repetitive as other games? Sure, it might feel more like Grand Theft Auto than WoW at first, but it will devolve into the same grind experience. "K DAWG I GOTTA BLAT-BLAT SIX HUNDRED MO' PEOPLE SO I CANS DYE MY HAIR PURPLE, I'LL CHECK YOU LATER AIGHT?" And ignore the fact that I automatically associate a crime game with black people, I am most certainly not racist, so leave me alone you meanie

[Blorx]

Okay, first off, APB isn't like GTA except for the base gameplay. It is what I thought GTA should have been, rather than the boring crapfest it was. I never had any motivation to finish GTA and I have kept on with APB throughout my time in the beta. Plus, everything is pretty realistic in terms of money. Certain rankings are required to get certain things, but you can get the base things and customize how you want with a little effort easily. It's not a grindfest at all, and they're working on giving you even more to do than there already is, or so the press release says. It's not just GTA, it's literally got a plethora (wow, I need a wider vocabulary) of social aspects, and customization beyond just looks. However, it's still under NDA, so I can't cover anything that wasn't in the hands-on previews. I don't know how much the music editor was covered, but you can do a lot with it.

Secondly, not all MMOs are boring grindfests. They're RPGs at heart. A good MMO is just like a good RPG, just with much more length and replayability - same core gameplay, lots of things to do.

The crap MMOs are boring grindfests. You need to be looking to games like APB for a shot of something new. Another shot of something new that got much less attention than it deserved is Chronicles of Spellborn, which I hold highly in opinion.

I'd also like to mention that F2P MMOs aren't F2P at all. It's basically a different payment plan. If you want all of the content, you're going to have to spend loads more than that monthly subscription to access it, or spend about 5-10x the amount of time in-game getting strong enough to get to it. Ever played Mabinogi? There are tons of essentials to the game that require a hefty amount of cash, ranging from $5-10. Rebirths in that game are essential to advancement, and you have to pay for them. Which is more reasonable?

EDIT: I'd also like to point out, like I was saying, besides gimmicks, what's different between FPSs? Halo and Modern Warfare are immensely popular, and I'm sure I could find a dozen games that play exactly like them with a different sort of gimmick. The same goes for RPGs, which occupy a lot of my time...and hidden object games, which also occupy a lot of my time...hell, you want to take a shot at books too? =P

[Ragdollmaster]

So it's GTA + Second Life + Instant Messenger. Sounds great

Again, they can only go so far with a single game before it gets repetitive, whatever they may be saying now. This is what every game developer says, to generate hype and sales. Do you think any companies would make money if they declared, "Yeah sorry, but our game pretty much gets boring as hell after about a month so good luck with that."?

As for what's different between FPS games, a lot, actually, the same variance you see in other games. Different stories, different engines, different gameplay mechanics, different amounts of realism, difficulty, multiplayer modes (or lack thereof); FPS games can get pretty varied, unless you can't get past "BUT IN ALL OF THEM YOU FIRE WEAPONS IN FIRST PERSON MODE CLEARLY THIS MEANS THEY ARE ALL THE SAME." Are you about to tell me there's no difference between Half-Life and Modern Warfare? Or no difference between Oblivion and Battlefield? How about Halo and Gears of Wa- OH WAIT MY BAD.

The point is that there are plenty of FPS games with huge variances between them and the status quo.

"They're RPGs at heart. A good MMO is just like a good RPG, just with much more length and replayability - same core gameplay, lots of things to do."

So how much CAN you do in APB? Shoot people, drive cars (oh wait, there's also probably boats and motorcycles and helicopters derp), and "in-depth customization", which I assume is purely cosmetic (changing the appearance of your character and weapons and vehicles) or at best practical in minor ways (adding silencers, laser sights and the like to your weapons, adding upgrades to your vehicles and weapons)

You're saying a lot of things without actually saying anything here. Give me an example of this in-depth customization, or all of the great gameplay routes, or indeed, how any of these examples add core gameplay mechanics and are not superficial additions meant to pad out the content so that it seems like a better buy?

tl;dr I hate hype.

[underthedeep]

So it's GTA + Second Life + Instant Messenger. Sounds great

Again, they can only go so far with a single game before it gets repetitive, whatever they may be saying now. This is what every game developer says, to generate hype and sales. Do you think any companies would make money if they declared, "Yeah sorry, but our game pretty much gets boring as hell after about a month so good luck with that."?

As for what's different between FPS games, a lot, actually, the same variance you see in other games. Different stories, different engines, different gameplay mechanics, different amounts of realism, difficulty, multiplayer modes (or lack thereof); FPS games can get pretty varied, unless you can't get past "BUT IN ALL OF THEM YOU FIRE WEAPONS IN FIRST PERSON MODE CLEARLY THIS MEANS THEY ARE ALL THE SAME." Are you about to tell me there's no difference between Half-Life and Modern Warfare? Or no difference between Oblivion and Battlefield? How about Halo and Gears of Wa- OH WAIT MY BAD.

The point is that there are plenty of FPS games with huge variances between them and the status quo.

"They're RPGs at heart. A good MMO is just like a good RPG, just with much more length and replayability - same core gameplay, lots of things to do."

So how much CAN you do in APB? Shoot people, drive cars (oh wait, there's also probably boats and motorcycles and helicopters derp), and "in-depth customization", which I assume is purely cosmetic (changing the appearance of your character and weapons and vehicles) or at best practical in minor ways (adding silencers, laser sights and the like to your weapons, adding upgrades to your vehicles and weapons)

You're saying a lot of things without actually saying anything here. Give me an example of this in-depth customization, or all of the great gameplay routes, or indeed, how any of these examples add core gameplay mechanics and are not superficial additions meant to pad out the content so that it seems like a better buy?

tl;dr I hate hype.

you are honestly making an ass and a fool out of yourself, JUST SAYIN'. he wasn't stating that all FPS games are the same if you read his post correctly. He was stating that a lot of them play similar.

now i do not think i agree completely with that statement completely, but i can see what he means. ie. sooo manny fucking games now use the same health system that was introduced in halo.

and basically what you are doing now is knocking something before you try it. Blorx is beta testing it so i would honestly take his opinion and info on it over your shitty word generalizing every MMORPG as a grindfest. have you ever even made it to ANY endgame play of ANY MMORPG? or even just QUESTED instead of grinding? yikes.

lastly, your end request for him to explain more of the in-depth customization and all the other good stuff. blorx SPECIFICALLY mentions that it is still under NDA, and if you don't know what that means.

it means. NON DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT

QQ plz

[Renegade_Turner]

His generalisation of MMORPG's as grindfests is well-founded.

[underthedeep]

His generalisation of MMORPG's as grindfests is well-founded.

i can understand why many would say so, a lot of people like to argue that the game usually doesn't start until you reach high level. i hear in WoW now you can get from 1-60 in 4 days, witch is fucking retarded if you ask me but that cuts out any grinding. also when i played Allods there was almost TOO many quest in each zone.

ya i know thats only 2 out the 1000000, so yeah. i get it.

[Blorx]

Ouch! Lots of text. Where to start...where to start...

Here's a good article on the hands-on experience. I'm going to answer what I can based on what I think is in the realm of answering them.

So it's GTA + Second Life + Instant Messenger. Sounds great

Not even close. You're really not getting it. It's like an online battleground, with up to 100 people per server (creating a tighter-knit community), and a lot of interconnected servers, that emulate a cops vs robbers sort of conflict. The game has more than just running around shooting people. There are a lot of nuances that make it truly unique and engaging, quite a few of which I'm not going to share so that I can keep my beta tester status.

It's really nothing like GTA, other than the fact that you can steal cars.

Again, they can only go so far with a single game before it gets repetitive, whatever they may be saying now. This is what every game developer says, to generate hype and sales. Do you think any companies would make money if they declared, "Yeah sorry, but our game pretty much gets boring as hell after about a month so good luck with that."?

That's where you'd be wrong. Halo 3 still has millions of players monthly, and it has been added on to at a steady rate once or twice per year. Everyone revered ODST as epic, though it was just a standalone Halo 3 expansion.

Plenty of people still play the original Left 4 Dead, which Valve explicitly stated it will continue supporting. You're saying it's getting repetitive too?

As for what's different between FPS games, a lot, actually, the same variance you see in other games. Different stories, different engines, different gameplay mechanics, different amounts of realism, difficulty, multiplayer modes (or lack thereof); FPS games can get pretty varied, unless you can't get past "BUT IN ALL OF THEM YOU FIRE WEAPONS IN FIRST PERSON MODE CLEARLY THIS MEANS THEY ARE ALL THE SAME." Are you about to tell me there's no difference between Half-Life and Modern Warfare? Or no difference between Oblivion and Battlefield? How about Halo and Gears of Wa- OH WAIT MY BAD.

Those are absolutely horrible comparisons. First off, you compared a game that is, at its root, more of an adventure game with an FPS tacked on to a stereotypical war FPS. Then, you decided to compare a shallow action RPG to yet another stereotypical war FPS. Then, you finished off with comparing a game that encourages you to be a lone hero to a tactical, team-based TPS. Really, you should be a lawyer. Neither gears nor Oblivion are FPSs at all, and Half-Life can hardly be considered a traditional FPS.

The point is that there are plenty of FPS games with huge variances between them and the status quo.

There are, but not if you look in the same niche. There's no difference between CoD and BF, other than gimmicks and graphics. Well, there's that and the fact that Battlefield Bad Company emulates the battlefield much more effectively.

So how much CAN you do in APB? Shoot people, drive cars (oh wait, there's also probably boats and motorcycles and helicopters derp), and "in-depth customization", which I assume is purely cosmetic (changing the appearance of your character and weapons and vehicles) or at best practical in minor ways (adding silencers, laser sights and the like to your weapons, adding upgrades to your vehicles and weapons)

I would tell you, but the NDA tells me not to. Let me just say that in the case you decided to buy it for the 50 hours of gameplay (you're still getting 5x more playtime out of box than the average game), you will be pleasantly surprised. For one, driving is a challenge in itself, in that it's realistically emulated.

You're saying a lot of things without actually saying anything here. Give me an example of this in-depth customization, or all of the great gameplay routes, or indeed, how any of these examples add core gameplay mechanics and are not superficial additions meant to pad out the content so that it seems like a better buy?

The customization I will touch on by comparison. Have you ever played a Cryptic game? Like as in City of Heroes, Champions Online, or Star Trek Online? Take the customization in those games and they'll be crap compared to APB's level of customization.

tl;dr I hate hype.

I do too, my friend. I don't hype. In fact, I didn't do anything other than raise awareness for what I think is a great idea in the OP, and then defend my decision to do so. You guys are taking this entirely wrong.

you are honestly making an ass and a fool out of yourself, JUST SAYIN'. he wasn't stating that all FPS games are the same if you read his post correctly. He was stating that a lot of them play similar.

Exactly.

now i do not think i agree completely with that statement completely, but i can see what he means. ie. sooo manny fucking games now use the same health system that was introduced in halo.

Like I said, a lot of them have the same mechanics backed by different engines. I don't know how many times FPS makers have been sued by each other for the mechanics being so similar.

A good example: Duke Nukem, Hexen, Heretic, Doom and Wolfenstein. They were all really similar games, and in fact one could say they were all reskins of each other. However, the thing that set them apart in the end was gimmicks. It's no different now.

and basically what you are doing now is knocking something before you try it. Blorx is beta testing it so i would honestly take his opinion and info on it over your shitty word generalizing every MMORPG as a grindfest. have you ever even made it to ANY endgame play of ANY MMORPG? or even just QUESTED instead of grinding? yikes.

Thank you! I'm trying to give an objective opinion here. I'm not a game critic, I'm a game player and designer. I'm not even playing the finished game. It's full as hell of bugs. Doesn't change anything, it's still fun in my opinion, and so I'm telling you guys it is.

lastly, your end request for him to explain more of the in-depth customization and all the other good stuff. blorx SPECIFICALLY mentions that it is still under NDA, and if you don't know what that means.

it means. NON DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT

It's amazing how many people won't respect that.

His generalisation of MMORPG's as grindfests is well-founded.

No, in fact, it really isn't...F2P MMOs and WoW clones are grindfests. You need to try something out of the box. Try RISE, try Spellborn, try Neocron, try APB. There are many more, but I won't waste my time.