Yet another thread about optimization

[Karel]

I would normally not post that, but something changed my mind recently.

We all know that that the game isn't really optimized as it is now, and I was one of the first to say that it wasn't a priority, since OG is in Alpha, and that optimization in my point of view should be done during the Beta.

However, something changed my mind - the last Art Asset Overview.
I mean, we're beginning to see maps as they are supposed to be in that video - let's be honest, most maps in OG are actually empty. Deserts, dead volcanoes with not a lot of structures ... well there is Shards, but I think that if it runs smoothly, it's because the structures aren't full of polygons. But when we add lots of trees and structures it lags as hell. Big custom maps are completely impossible to play to me even if my hardware is actually pretty good.

In this video we can see that the devs are working on more structures, more rocks, stuff to fill the map, and so on. Yet even them are lagging as hell, and the cursor keeps warping in the editor (1:17) ... Really if they plan on making better maps, with a lot of stuff in it, there should be some optimization before, because we already lag in deserts here.

[Silverfish]

David will and should only keep it as optimized as it needs to be at this stage. It's not about us being able to play huge custom maps well. It's about if Aubrey can create his levels with the level of detail he finds reasonable while his computer still being able to handle it. Like you say, when we get to beta we will probably see some heavier optimization.

Where do you see the game lagging as hell on David's or Aubrey's computers? That thing at 1:17 is happening because he's playing in slow motion, and the slow motion extends to the mouse as well so it's just not updated as frequently.

There are a few hitches here and there in that particular video, but nothing that would warrant some huge optimization. It's still 100% playable - and keep in mind he's also recording video, which is very taxing on the computer - so it looks fine to me.

[human_dictionary]

i think we do need optimisation features really soon. i only really play on he sumair map by jacktheawesome, but that has only 1 object and 4 AI. i can play that on quite high graphics, but then i saw BigBangNic's 'titan battle' on youtube and i wanted to try that out. but i loaded the level (cat town outpost thingy) and i got 8 fps, even with slo-mo on. tried lowering my AA, AO, texture detail and even screen size, but it still lagged like hell.

not everyone has a transforming juggernaut with a 3,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000... Ghz CPU, machine guns and a golden case! (maybe i took that a little too far...) i have an entry-level gaming PC, dual core, 4GB RAM (3 useable, 32 bit) GeForce 8600, 500Gb hard disk etc. i am planning to upgrade quite soon but i will then have payed over £300 for it. and then OG will less enjoyable for i think the majority of the forum community like me.

[Jaz]

Like Silverfish said, the game is in alpha atm and us being able to play it is not a priority.

When the game goes into beta, the devs will start to work on optimization, but until then you will need a really good computer to play the game.

If your computer can't handle the game, don't play it yet. Your purchase is a PREORDER. It isn't a priority for the devs to cater to you until they've finished the game. They have no obligation to make the game work until it's officially released. At the moment, the alphas are essentially unofficially official. They may be officially released by the devs, but they're unoficially supported.

[Tree-LPer]

Like Silverfish said, the game is in alpha atm and us being able to play it is not a priority.

When the game goes into beta, the devs will start to work on optimization, but until then you will need a really good computer to play the game.

If your computer can't handle the game, don't play it yet. Your purchase is a PREORDER. It isn't a priority for the devs to cater to you until they've finished the game. They have no obligation to make the game work until it's officially released. At the moment, the alphas are essentially unofficially official. They may be officially released by the devs, but they're unoficially supported.

Then when will this so called beta be released. From the look of things and the amount of progress on the game it looks like we may finally get a freakin beta 2 or 3 years from now. I understand it is not a priority for us to be able to play but it pisses me off the way they treat people that contribute money to their game by pre-ordering.

[Korban3]

Uh yeah. That sounds about right for beta.
It's one guy programming a 3D game engine from scratch incorporating some really complicated features that most AAA games with large dev teams won't even touch.
Like blood that actually drips and stains characters.
And he's got an artist buddy, too. A artist.
And a brother who works on the UI and a PR guy. Who are both freakin' awesome in their own rights, but don't program the game engine or work in the scripts.
This is not some bull-shit cookie cutter CoD re-run, more commonly mistaken for a sequel, that he can just churn out in 6 months. He has to work on it, and he does, day in and day out for weeks and week and weeks an weeks. He does it for us. Yeah, we threw money at him and he's obviously delivering on that part, but he is making the game more epic because he wants to.
Here's a pro-tip for you: Each week we get an alpha release. So, by deductive reasoning, we come to the conclusion that the alpha number is a rather accurate means of measuring how many weeks David has put into OG. Let's see here... Alpha 175.
One hundred and seventy weeks. That's how long David has worked on this game. We're still a fair way from beta.
It takes time.
Dead Space took quite a while in development too. So did Half Life 2 and other games that were as high a caliber as Overgrowth and used custom engines. In fact, Dead Space didn't use a custom engine, IIRC. So, 5 years for David to make Overgrowth is not unreasonable.
Also, he's a damn genius. David is the most talented programmer I have evar seen. And he cares about the community here.
In fact, if you're so pissed off about how he treats the fans who threw money at him, why don't you go right here http://www.wolfire.com/contact, pop open the IRC channel and wait for him to get on tomorrow. Tell him all about how mad you are that he is making us wait so long for beta. Tell him how pissed you get when you think about how dreadfully slow he is at producing a video game.
Have a nice damn day.

[+] Ponies Inbound

[Zelron]

I have to agree with that some of the maps are "slow". I tried Patchy Highlands once. I swear I got like 2 FPS (I kind of assume it's just because my computer is crap). Never went back to that map...
BUT, this is an alpha version. The main point at this stage is to make the game work, not make it work well. That's what the beta will be for.
To be honest, being able to play the game really isn't even a concern. The only reason we get to use it is because we wouldn't have given them all our money otherwise. The promise of, "Give us some money, and well let you play this game some time in the future. We aren't sure how far in the future, but eventually. And the chance we may never actually finish it is pretty small, so we are almost sure this won't be a total waste". Unless you're an investment company of course, then your whole job is giving people money on weak promises.

[Windlord]

Then when will this so called beta be released. From the look of things and the amount of progress on the game it looks like we may finally get a freakin beta 2 or 3 years from now. I understand it is not a priority for us to be able to play but it pisses me off the way they treat people that contribute money to their game by pre-ordering.

As alpha preorderers, we are only entitled to supporting the game and its development.

Nothing more.

However, we are privileged with weekly unofficial alpha snapshots which we may choose to try out. Note that the alphas are DRM-free, which is actually extremely surprising. If you were developing a game, wouldn't you want to hide its code as much as possible before (And after) release? Note that Overgrowth's game logic is all exposed as it's written in AngelScript.

Another point is that Wolfire does the unimaginable act of refunding alpha preorders. Self-entitled people actually preorder for a perfect game and waste precious support time for that! I personally think that this best shows what Wolfire is like, honest, open, mature and extremely humble. If I ran a company where people kept on asking for preorder refunds, I'd go mad at them. (To give you a comparison, the act of asking for refunds on preorders is like pledging for a Kickstarter then asking for the money back - which is impossible)

--

After release, we would be entitled to a game which would run on recommended hardware stated by Wolfire.

Nothing more.

[slime]

Here's what I wrote in a reddit thread about optimization earlier today:

Absolutely, there is definitely a lot of optimization that will be done before the game is finished, however there's a saying that tends to be more true than one might expect: "premature optimization is the root of all evil." Heavy optimization is often one of the last things done before a game's release.

Someone else in the same thread linked this, which is a must-read I think: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_op ... o_optimize

Personally, I've both seen other people optimize too early and done it myself on more than one occasion. It is a mistake way more often than not, and will likely end up hurting the code a lot in the long run.

[Jaz]

Like Silverfish said, the game is in alpha atm and us being able to play it is not a priority.

When the game goes into beta, the devs will start to work on optimization, but until then you will need a really good computer to play the game.

If your computer can't handle the game, don't play it yet. Your purchase is a PREORDER. It isn't a priority for the devs to cater to you until they've finished the game. They have no obligation to make the game work until it's officially released. At the moment, the alphas are essentially unofficially official. They may be officially released by the devs, but they're unoficially supported.

Then when will this so called beta be released. From the look of things and the amount of progress on the game it looks like we may finally get a freakin beta 2 or 3 years from now. I understand it is not a priority for us to be able to play but it pisses me off the way they treat people that contribute money to their game by pre-ordering.

WHAT?!

You contribute to their game by PRE-ORDERING. This is a PRE-ORDER of an UNFINISHED game. You're not ordering a finished game. In fact, you're not really ordering anything but a promise of a finished game.

THE ALPHAS ARE AN EXTRA TREAT. They are not what you purchased, they are a gift on the side. You threw your money at them for the promise of a finished game EVENTUALLY. They don't even have to give you a release date.

THE ONLY THING THEY ARE LEGALLY ENTITLED TO DO IS RELEASE THE GAME AT SOME POINT IN TIME.
Even then, they have the legal right to cancel the game at any time.

Plus they actually treat us pretty nicely as long as we don't start demanding a perfect game like you are.

We get mod support, fan art support, and loads of blog info, which again, they are not legally entitled to give.
Plus we get extra official maps to play, which will probably not even end up in the full game when it's released.

So before you start complaining about how they treat us, maybe ask preorders who have actually been nice enough to deserve to be treated nicely?

P.S. Remind me never to be kind enough to add alphas on the side if I ever get into game development and allow preorders of my first game. -.-