Too much user content?

[turbochop]

(Warning: This post is kinda TL;DR. For a gist of what it's about, the last paragraph Is a good summary. Also, I'm not sure If this should have been in the modding subforum or not, Since it's relevant to that topic.)

I've been thinking a lot about this lately. To me it seems like there is an over saturation of user
content, with more new stuff coming in everyday. Now don't get me wrong, I'm proud of the community for showing their overwhelming support for the game, and I know one of the goals of the game is to be easily moddable. But will Wolfire be able to create a main campaign that will match the quality of the user content, or will it be ignored in favor of said content?

I remember playing some great single player campaigns, and when going online many people said things like, "No one cares about the single player of this game anymore. The modding community is where it's at." I know the game hasn't been released, but that is my whole point actually. I'm not a developer, but if I made a whole game, I wouldn't want that work to be Ignored.

It makes me think of companies that don't release modding tools right away. Bethesda Comes to mind, they didn't release tools for Fallout or Skyrim until sometime after release (I'm not sure about Oblivion or older). My guess is because they wanted to give the game a chance to shine before new (perhaps better) mods could be made.

Another, kind of related deal is when Blizzard releases a new expansion pack e.g Wrath of the Lich King; When that came out, the titular boss didn't even exist. In fact neither did his castle. Now that could be because it was rushed to release before the dungeon was created. But I'm sure it was strategic; They let players experience the game and made them wait for the boss, otherwise they would just plow through the expansion. I believe they used this strategy with the newest expansion Cataclysm as well, maybe even the whole series. It was just made obvious for me during Wrath.

In other words, It all comes down to ensuring that players experience as much of the retail content as possible, And I think that having all of these mods so early might threaten that possibility.

Do you think the user content will enrich the world of Overgrowth, or do you think It will distract people from the game and content that Wolfire is creating?

[Zelron]

The problem with mods and user content vs vanilla content is that the game's content doesn't change. Mods are constantly updated and altered.
So someone can play through the single player game once and know everything about it because it set and will not change. New mods (and other user content) however are made virtually every single day. So those short attention span gamers can try a new mod every day.
Thus the issue becomes less about content quality and more about quantity.

The bottom line comes down to something called "replayablity". Which is how long people play a game after they have "beaten" it. Mods get players to continue to play the game long after that point as they can alter the game into almost a completely different experience.
(It should also be mention that the good majority of Mods are not totally game altering but rather game enhancing)

As I thought I'd mention that with WOW they're whole livelihood is getting people to keep playing as long as possible. So withholding a bit of content is quite understandable since mmorpg player are easily distracted from games they can't constantly get new levels and crap.

[Jacktheawesome]

So far, I have not seen any user content that has matched Aubrey's work.

[Korban3]

Yeah, Aubrey is a tough one to beat. I doubt we'll be seeing better art assets or better programming than vanilla for a while.

[shadowb297]

I preferably like the modding going on in the community, it gives people a chance to see if the game is easy to mod, hard to mod, hard to script, or even hard to master. The problem i see is how the developers are just shoving it out into your face. Like the SUM_Launcher, it gives players all these random mods, and then just throws in more mods that they think you should download. Either way, i like the modding going on, i just think they shouldn't advertise it as much as they do, until they actually find some mods that may help the game like the menu mod. Does that make any sense?

[Anton]

I preferably like the modding going on in the community, it gives people a chance to see if the game is easy to mod, hard to mod, hard to script, or even hard to master. The problem i see is how the developers are just shoving it out into your face. Like the SUM_Launcher, it gives players all these random mods, and then just throws in more mods that they think you should download. Either way, i like the modding going on, i just think they shouldn't advertise it as much as they do, until they actually find some mods that may help the game like the menu mod. Does that make any sense?

I'm glad you like the menu mod, as I've put a lot of time into making it. However, it doesn't really have all the features I really wanted, which is why we started SUM OG Utilities. It will eventually replace the menu mod in it's current state, and will hopefully solidify an easy way to install and manage mods as they come out.
I'm sorry to hear that you feel like we're pushing mods on you too much. SUM Launcher currently only acts as an updater for the game, and an installer and updater for the menu mod. It only installs functions that don't break the game, and things that won't break on a weekly basis. If there is anything that we are pushing too much, please let us know. Our lead programmer is finishing up his school semester soon, and we should be working on the rest of the functionality of SUM soon. The part that I am looking forward to is sorting mods and maps, and only downloading the ones you want to install. The current implementation of that is certainly less than appealing, especially as we add more and more content. It also makes finding levels to try difficult as they just end up in one long line... You can see more of what we're planning on the main thread.

As for too much community content, I could see that being an issue in some cases, however, I have seen it have an impact on the Dev team. When the community does things that the devs notice, it has often led to cool new game features, and uses of the assets. I personally don't think the quantity of custom content will be bad in the long run, and I think that what David and Aubrey have in store will be pretty spectacular.

[Karel]

It makes me think of companies that don't release modding tools right away. Bethesda Comes to mind, they didn't release tools for Fallout or Skyrim until sometime after release (I'm not sure about Oblivion or older). My guess is because they wanted to give the game a chance to shine before new (perhaps better) mods could be made.

You guess wrong.
Bethesda always release their construction sets when they don't want to patch the game anymore.
They're like "yeepee everybody bought the game, there are still huge ammounts of bugs and everything, let's work on a DLC, players will do unnoficial patches, mods, etc !"

That's probably the most insulting thing a game studio (or publisher I guess, as they're always the ones being douchebags in this industry) ever did (Well not true but still insulting.)

[Spike Jackson]

Sorta piggy-backing off of what Jack posted.

I really haven't seen any user content that seemed as fleshed out or complete as Aubrey's work.
There may be some really complex stuff, but I just haven't seen it.
It's predominately minor changes in gameplay or a level that looks like it took an hour long.
I'm not dissing people that make really good mods though.
Those of you that do take time with your mods are cool.

[Windlord]

I find a few comments on this thread very unappreciative as well as terribly misinformed... Anton was very tolerant and courteous with his reply and I hope people realise that.

Please bother to look into the mods and contributions made by the community before bashing any of them. Knowing and accepting the state of the game would help too.

Saying that mods inhibit singleplayer when no game really exists (it's a sandbox atm), is rubbish. Mods keep preorderers engaged, and maintain the community on the whole as well. It's also extremely rude to mention this argument since most mod authors have been in this community for a long while and are very well aware of which elements contribute to the game. Look into the maps, you'll find that they either show off an impressive aspect of OG gameplay, and/or introduce a story that fits into the current state of the game. There are also old Lugaru maps recreated, as well as interesting concepts which could potentially be helpful to the developers.

There are very few mods. When you start getting mods with duplicate functionalities, you can declare that we have too many. With the twenty thousand strong army of preorderers, I would expect many more mods. (I will try to write one myself when I get time)

Oh and anyone dissing the SUM Launcher is just being a complete arsehole. Would you code such a polished tool for free? No one forces you to install it, but everyone recommends it. Ever wondered why?

[turbochop]

I never wanted to come off as rude, And I'm not bashing any mods in particular. I just wanted to bring to light an issue I see in the long run. I enjoy using the SUMLauncher; It's a great utility that drastically simplifies the update process, and I can download the latest maps while I'm at it. Maybe the post title was a little misleading, but I really apologize if anyone was offended.

However at the same time, I was simply speaking my mind. The fact that I'm able to that in front of the twenty thousand strong army of preorderers, I think, takes some guts. Upon saying that I realize I sound like a troll which again is not my intention.

Lastly Windlord, you should read my post more carefully. I acknowledged that the game hasn't been released yet. Again, I wanted to address something I see happening in the future. I realize that over-saturation might have been too powerful a word.

I don't doubt the abilities of David or Aubrey, and I know they will come through with something awesome. I just want that awesomeness to be something special that people will remember for a long time. But I guess that I'm just old school retro like that.

[Windlord]

Sorry, I wasn't aiming my aggression at you in particular. Most of it was in response to shadowb297.

I did misunderstand your post slightly though, and I do apologise for that. I assumed you were mainly talking about the current, extrapolating the current state to the future.

Having said that, I still feel that I have not found the community content to be distracting in any way. This is mainly because there are a number of barriers to them (A low number of active players, and modding being in a subforum - often missed by the lazy eye) and also because most of it isn't inhibitive by design. I would imagine that this would be a continued pattern.

I have worked on community mods before and feel that the barrier is always high enough that 'too much content' is usually never a worry (Most people don't even try mods). With Overgrowth this is expected to reduce so I see what your worry may be coming from.

I admit my post was rather hasty, and I'm sorry for any offense caused!

[Caiser4]

It makes me think of companies that don't release modding tools right away. Bethesda Comes to mind, they didn't release tools for Fallout or Skyrim until sometime after release (I'm not sure about Oblivion or older). My guess is because they wanted to give the game a chance to shine before new (perhaps better) mods could be made.

Funny you should mention this example. You either give modders too much credit, the original developers too little or both. What modders of such games do is add a little more to or change a little of the enormous work that a big team of professionals made over a couple of years. There is no way the modders could have done that on their own (even if some are very talented, it's also a matter of time, resources and organization) and while a mod might make the game better, the mod itself won't be better than the game. So in the general sense of gaming/modding, I think you worry too much.

The small Wolfire team may be a little more outnumbered than a big company like Bethesda and don't have quite the head start because of the early alphas. Still they control the core mechanics of the game so the community can't possibly steal all the glory (what they didn't intend to do anyway) and the game is actually pretty able to shine as a sandbox alone. As for the rest, it's really a matter of who makes the best assets/maps and until now Aubrey wins in my opinion.

[TheWayOfTheCarrot]

Did you play Lugaru?

The story usually goes like this:


Rabbit is chilling with his family and friends.

Bandits come.

Bandits kill his family and friends while he went off chasing a strange rabbit he never seen before.

Rabbit comes back.

Rabbit kills bandits.

Rabbits hunts down bandits to avenge family.

Rabbit tracks down bandits to royal rabbit family.

Rabbit uncovers conspiracy to sacrifice rabbits to wolves to please them.

Rabbit kills all.



Thats like 8 levels of content.


I'd want a simple story mode for some back story, then what I want more than that is some game modes.

[Karel]

Rabbit is chilling with his family and friends.
Bandits come.
Bandits kill his family and friends while he went off chasing a strange rabbit he never seen before.
Rabbit comes back.
Rabbit kills bandits.
Rabbits hunts down bandits to avenge family.
Rabbit tracks down bandits to royal rabbit family.
Rabbit uncovers conspiracy to sacrifice rabbits to wolves to please them.
Rabbit kills all.

Basically this. I never understood why people liked Lugaru (Noshit, not trying to troll.) ...
And the plot was objectively bad, and the game terribly short.

That said I don't think it's much of a problem now, as hints the comic and more stuff, there is a background for Overgrowth.

But, really, the story of lugaru ... ugh. I don't want to troll, but I really find Wolfire devs very courageous to admit that they made it and based their second game on it.

That said Ovegrowth, for what I've seen so far, fixed most of Lugaru's problems (simply by being actually good, which Lugaru actually wasn't)

[Windlord]

Lugaru was good in its time.

Overgrowth is a sandbox atm, how are you comparing it with Lugaru at all?