An Idea for the Ranged Combat System

[hello_mr.trout]

so, if the general consensus is that aiming crosshair/reticule would ruin immersion levels, & yet auto-aim would be overpowered, would an acceptable compromise be an auto-aim which is fairly inaccurate? say with the example of something like bow + arrows, various factors could be taken into account like; is the player in motion or stationary? what direction is the character's head facing towards? what is the overall range?

if implemented well, it could lead to the kind of scenerio where your opening move might be to attempt to take out a guard at long range, and you still run the risk of missing the shot, and alterting the enemy to your presence.

[Endoperez]

That is an intriguing option. It could probably work, balance-wise, but learning it would be quite difficult.How will the player know he's taking all the invisible factors into account?

That was a problem with Lugaru. Wolves could smell you, but the game didn't tell you that. Wind direction was random, but since there was no wind direction indicator on the screen, you didn't know it, or that it mattered.

If there are so many factors that successful ranged hits seem random, the combat becomes less skill-based.

[DragonRuins]

I think that bows wouldn't be such a bad idea. Has anyone thought about the fact that enemies that are encountered may have armor? Perhaps a helmet in the near future? Armor that covers some of the neck and body? A bow would be comparable to a dull blade if the target was wearing even half decent armor. It would take some serious skill to be able to hit the open spots. Especially if the target is moving. Not only that, but adjusting for the drop of the arrow, accuracy of the shot, and the velocity. Another way of balancing bows could be the chance of arrows breaking. If you hit a piece of armor, the arrow would most definitely break and having hardly any chance to actually pierce the protection. Limited ammunition and reload/draw time is also balancing. Perhaps there could be a chance of the string breaking and you would have to press a key to throw the bow to the side (or at your enemy) instead of it happening automatically. Adding bows can be useful even for something other than the bow itself- the arrows. You could pick up arrows (or find one laying around in a hut) and if you don't have a bow, you can throw it. It will have minimal chance to actually pierce, but it's definitely a nice last-hope attempt at saving yourself.

[Thefuzzyman]

Interesting, I like your line of reasoning. We can also look at the technology of the era this game emulates. Tech seems pretty close to stone age (and I think I remember the devs saying something about that) in this game. Bows might not be all that advanced and as a consequence may not be too powerful. I'm no bow expert, though; my knowledge on the subject is spotty at best.

[hello_mr.trout]

@endoperez
i think you make a good point about the skill based combat vs. random factor - an outcome where players feel the game systems are unfair/arbitrary, or not fully explained (which results in the same feeling) isn't great.

having said that, there are several workarounds/solutions for some of the problems you've identified. for example; wind directions could be revealed to the (observant) player by noticing various visual feedback identifiers - like the direction that grass, foliage, and flags are facing/blowing towards.

also, to incorporate some of dragon ruins' ideas/thinkings, what if arrows weren't necessarily fatal? for example, headshots could one-shot opponents, but otherwise, arrows would be fairly weak, or equivalent to a single slash from the dagger perhaps? technically, i don't think it would be to hard to implement either, could be a similar system to team fort 2, and the sniper's huntsman weapon - arrow shafts would just poke out of player models where they were hit. dragon ruins' ideas about balancing are also pretty great i think!

additionally, in response to fuzzyman, i think a fairly low tech bow would fit the game's tech level - something fairly simple, with either roughly shaped iron or flint tips for the arrow heads - nothing as advanced as a crossbow say.

[Endoperez]

@endoperez
i think you make a good point about the skill based combat vs. random factor - an outcome where players feel the game systems are unfair/arbitrary, or not fully explained (which results in the same feeling) isn't great.

having said that, there are several workarounds/solutions for some of the problems you've identified.

Yes, and I posted because I hoped that way people would come up with the solutions, or even the possible factors.

I think that bows wouldn't be such a bad idea. Has anyone thought about the fact that enemies that are encountered may have armor? Perhaps a helmet in the near future? Armor that covers some of the neck and body? A bow would be comparable to a dull blade if the target was wearing even half decent armor. It would take some serious skill to be able to hit the open spots. Especially if the target is moving. Not only that, but adjusting for the drop of the arrow, accuracy of the shot, and the velocity.

Hitting an unarmored part of a moving enemy might come down to luck. Imagine if headshots were criticals only if you hit an unarmored part (face, hands, one spot on the left arm, boots except under right knee where there's something strapped in there), and headshots that hit the forehead or the neck were normal hits, and headshots that hit the back of the head were blocked totally because the guy is wearing a helmet.

Armor can be used to balance bows, but even if it solves one problems it opens a new one. The new one is less important though.

Balancing the bows by a challenge that's both more familiar to many people than the melee combat, and totally separate from the melee combat, also runs the slight risk of making some people play Overgrowth as an awkward shooting game, until they meet armored enemies, at which point they don't have enough experience in melee to defeat them. That's pretty extreme case though.


This game's focus is on melee. What does bow add to the melee? In my opinion, nothing.
What would, say, thrown daggers add, by comparison? The risk of throwing away your weapon, the risk of enemy taking the weapon, the risk of enemy throwing the dagger back (because he doesn't need a bow!), AND you have to be close, so you might even accidentally make a wrong move and the enemy notices you!


Any way, I'm not saying that bows are impossible.

Bows are possible, but there are problems. I''m selfish, so I'd rather see bows in mods, and have vanilla Overgrowth focus on the melee, because that's my favourite part. Keep this in mind while reading through my arguments!

[DragonRuins]

Balancing the bows by a challenge that's both more familiar to many people than the melee combat, and totally separate from the melee combat, also runs the slight risk of making some people play Overgrowth as an awkward shooting game, until they meet armored enemies, at which point they don't have enough experience in melee to defeat them. That's pretty extreme case though.

This game's focus is on melee. What does bow add to the melee? In my opinion, nothing.
What would, say, thrown daggers add, by comparison? The risk of throwing away your weapon, the risk of enemy taking the weapon, the risk of enemy throwing the dagger back (because he doesn't need a bow!), AND you have to be close, so you might even accidentally make a wrong move and the enemy notices you!

This game's focus is CURRENTLY on melee. We have absolutely no idea how Overgrowth is going to be "focused" on. You are also forgetting about balancing issues. If you can have bows, your enemies can too, right? Not only that, but maybe the AI can be coded to predict and dodge arrows(don't forget about rolling. They could roll, pick it up as it's flying at you [because you can do that with daggers] then throw it back) as they charge at you; when they reach you they will grab the bow from you and snap it in half and pull out a dagger. You're left with nothing. The only thing you can do is pull out the maybe 1 or 2 arrows that you have on your back and attempt to fight back. But you can't block because the dagger will break them in half. It can create an interesting version of melee indeed.

[Endoperez]

Lugaru, the prequel, was melee.

Here's a quote from the devs, from a few years ago.

John Graham.

we would like to include ranged attacks, but we also want to maintain the focus on close-quarters combat. Many fighting games that include ranged weapons end up having severe balance problems

http://blog.wolfire.com/2009/05/ranged- ... vergrowth/

Those are two things I base my opinions on.




There's a problem with enemy having bows. Imagine this;

You are in melee. You are beating an enemy. Then an archer kills you.

You can do the same to the AI, right? There's one big difference. You lose if you die once. AI "loses" if they are all dead.

You having the ability to kill one AI character from surprise is acceptable. Giving that power to the AI will lead to frustration.



Also, as for your example. That exact thing you described works with a throwing dagger. You throw it, enemy dodges and grabs it and comes at you. He charges, you have nothing, you pick your secondary weapon from your belt but it's just a stick.

It's hard to think of a scene where a bow is used in a situation where thrown weapons don't apply, and which would work well mechanics-wise. It's not impossible, but hard.

[DragonRuins]

After seeing everything you've had to say, I now certainly agree that Overgrowth should really restrict bows to mods, as you said. I'd actually prefer to see the melee system evolve and become more dynamic and involved rather than ranged attacks.

[Endoperez]

Thanks for listening. So few people do, on the internet.

Also, there's this thing about mods - you can go crazy with them. Parkour bow sniping might be fun, even if it's hard to balance. So if you have any other ideas or scenarios, you can still post them.

[atomtengeralattjaro]

At first I was kind of excited about the idea of bows in OG, but (mostly due to arguments in this thread and actually thinking about it) now i agree with you guys.
Throwing knives on the other hand.. (can I steer back to the auto-aim issue?)
i love throwing knives, and the way they are currently implemented is fun, but not very balanced (i can fatally injure an enemy by throwing a knife at him much more easily than when he's actually in melee range and I slash/poke at him with the knife). Do you guys think there is a way around auto-aim? Or will it just be down to luck and reduced accuracy?

[Ravanger]

Yeah agree with some of you guys that bows,guns and stuff I suspect will never work or take a very long time to work in overgrowth. Still on ranged weapons main focus will be throwing weapons. The damage for throwing weapons depending on what it is should be a bit less instead of an instant kill or massive amounts of damage depending on where you hit them. In the future of this game I hope maybe NPCs can engage in throwing stuff at you, but that's gonna be a long shot considering the work that will take to make it balanced. Shurikens and throwing daggers,rocks could be done to peck at the enemy while fighting and ambushing but shouldn't be ultra deadly if they add weapons that are especially for throwing. Ability for enemies and even yourself to have a chance to doge throwing weapons especially if its something like a sword or spear seems like a must for balance. Finishing off though stuff like guns and bows are something that shouldn't be added.

[Endoperez]

If auto-aim stays but it's easier to dodge the missiles, throwing weapons might become more balanced. Perhaps if the enemies made a sound when they start throwing, that sound cue could be enough to warn you, so that you'd have just enough time to try and roll away?

[DBCreeper]

Man you read my mind!

[zzwerty]

I suppose even if there was no bow+arrow combat for the player there could still be for the bad guys. That could be a good way of stopping players just jumping up to a high place to escape baddies.

What if it had decent auto aim and there were only a few arrows supplied to the player (Aka no quiver) meaning he had to use them sparingly?