[Concern] Worried about final game's content

[Swordarm]

I may not be as active as I was in the years before but I am still lurking around and watching all the cool videos (of which there seem to be less and less as the development goes on although I agree with the reason). Recently I have (once again) started to get worried about Overgrowth, specifically after watching David's a198 video changelog video. I was hoping for some clarification in some follow-up video and so far nothing came, hence this post. Obviously, I am looking to start a discussion whiloe also hoping to get David himself to make a statement here.


The engine and game are at a point where there exist solid mechanics. David does note that in the a198 video but then he makes some interesting statements:

1.) He intends to explore the design space of the combat and stealth mechanics through two distinct game modes he calls Arena and Raider modes, with the former being the main focus for now. Do not get me wrong, I think this is a good idea and with the right gameplay mechanic layer on top (David refers to that as meta-game in the video), these will probably end up being shining examples of simple yet deep game design, not to mention bein a lot of fun.

2.) If this goes faster than expected, David states that they would start thinking about an additional mode. If not, they transition into Beta and start polishing the game.

I do think Overgrowth's release should be take place in the next two years thus I agree with David's plan in principle. However I am kind of worried about what will be in that release content-wise. I mean, we did not hear about the world and the single player story for quiiiittteee a long time now. One could get the impression that Overgrowth will be more like a playground with some diversions in it and not a full game with a realized setting and a plot, think Garry's Mod with some mini-games and challenge levels.
Considering how interesting, mysterious and cool the setting of Overgrowth is, this would be a shame. Just look at Zeno Clash, which ended up being fun but mediocre because of its weak single player mode and focus on the arena mode. ZC took place in a world that was like creativity exploding right in your face, yet that world was never realized because its history and rules were never communicated to the player properly.

Here is me, longtime David-fan (BlackShades !!!) and early "preorderer" hoping I am wrong. There have been a lot of really cool indie games that ultimately disappointent because they were utterly lacking in the content department and failed to put their seemingly limitless potential to good use.

And... ...no I do not want to be spoiled, I just want hear about the games features and nature of content.

[DI0BL0]

This is not something I would worry about. Aubrey knows what hes doing as far as story. The reason for making the meta games as I think you know Is just to get the combat and stealth game play good. If you have read the comics then you know that Aubrey is good at making stories. And the devs are very committed to the game play.

[Karel]

To be honest I'm quite worried of that myself. I hope that the story will be well implemented, consistent, like in the comic. If they can't do cutscenes I hope they integrate comic like pictures or whatever in the game.

[Jacktheawesome]

David said a long time ago that he would be keeping us out of the loop storywise, so that it would be a surprise, and playing the full game would actually be a new experience for us preorderers. Seeing as David's role in the production is building mechanics, I'm not surprised at all that what we've seen from him is heavily focused on gameplay. I wouldn't worry. They wouldn't spend this long on the game and then ditch the story in the last year or two.

[Swordarm]

Of course you would if you notice that your story requires too much assets and content (-> expenses and time) or your gameplay mechanics grow to stale to fast over the course of it.

I would like to hear something about it.

[EPR89]

Ditch one of the most important factors in keeping players motivated in singleplayer games in a game that is primarily being developed as a singleplayer game.

Sounds like a plan.

[Jacktheawesome]

Well, they've had plenty of time already, and it looks like they're planning on spending more yet, so I'm not too worried about that. While David has been building the gameplay all this time Aubrey has been showing us assets and concept art. I really feel like even without knowing the actual content of the story we've seen plenty of evidence of its existence.

[Endoperez]

Ditch one of the most important factors in keeping players motivated in singleplayer games in a game that is primarily being developed as a singleplayer game.

Sounds like a plan.

At the same time they have started working on score system and a system that presents the player with ever-increasing challenges, which is also one of the most important factors in keeping player motivated.

I agree, the way they phrased their plans did seem to put very little emphasis on the story. It'd be nice to get a little more information.

[Swordarm]

I agree, the way they phrased their plans did seem to put very little emphasis on the story. It'd be nice to get a little more information.

My point.

[Ylvali]

I share these concerns.

It's all fine and dandy to say "I trust the devs to deliver" IF they end up delivering what's been hinted at during all these years. But you can't hype up things indefinitely year after year and then just scale back to something smaller.

Looking back through the communication with the community the following things have been presented as if it will be in the game, or hinted at in a way that hypes up the expectations about it:

*A compelling long, immersive story: (comic and lots of discussion about lore and mythology of the OG world, a blog post about map design, and so on.)

*Multiplayer: I appreciate that it hasn't been "promised", but post after post speculating, testing and hyping the possibilities of multiplayer roots the expectations. I believe a release without multiplayer at this point would be a big letdown.

*5 races: We still haven't seen rats, cats or dogs, but the intentions to include them are just too outspoken to back down from. They need to be in the game, they need to match the concept arts in originality, they need to have interesting and diverse fighting styles that blend against the rabbits and each other (the wolf animations still looks like placeholders too) and they need to be part of the story in a convincing way.

These things are all yet to be seen features that has been heavily hyped up during the years. You can't just do that without creating a minimum standard below which the result is disappointment. I really WANT to believe the devs will deliver beyond these expectations but I'm bracing myself for a product that is merely a sandbox figthing engine + some simple game modes and maybe a short story (like lugarus)

So far we have seen a brilliant fighting system, a fantastic editor and very immersive graphics and effects. And some splendid concept art. That's awesome, but at some point you have to not promise (or hint at) more than you can deliver. This is the problem with "open" development, and unless there has been lots of work going on behind the scenes during the years wolfire has created a rather difficult situation for themselves here. Of course they can just change their goals and still deliver an awesome but less ambitious game, but that may lead to quite a lot of refunds.

[akazi]

I share these concerns.

It's all fine and dandy to say "I trust the devs to deliver" IF they end up delivering what's been hinted at during all these years. But you can't hype up things indefinitely year after year and then just scale back to something smaller.

Looking back through the communication with the community the following things have been presented as if it will be in the game, or hinted at in a way that hypes up the expectations about it:

*A compelling long, immersive story: (comic and lots of discussion about lore and mythology of the OG world, a blog post about map design, and so on.)

*Multiplayer: I appreciate that it hasn't been "promised", but post after post speculating, testing and hyping the possibilities of multiplayer roots the expectations. I believe a release without multiplayer at this point would be a big letdown.

*5 races: We still haven't seen rats, cats or dogs, but the intentions to include them are just too outspoken to back down from. They need to be in the game, they need to match the concept arts in originality, they need to have interesting and diverse fighting styles that blend against the rabbits and each other (the wolf animations still looks like placeholders too) and they need to be part of the story in a convincing way.

These things are all yet to be seen features that has been heavily hyped up during the years. You can't just do that without creating a minimum standard below which the result is disappointment. I really WANT to believe the devs will deliver beyond these expectations but I'm bracing myself for a product that is merely a sandbox figthing engine + some simple game modes and maybe a short story (like lugarus)

So far we have seen a brilliant fighting system, a fantastic editor and very immersive graphics and effects. And some splendid concept art. That's awesome, but at some point you have to not promise (or hint at) more than you can deliver. This is the problem with "open" development, and unless there has been lots of work going on behind the scenes during the years wolfire has created a rather difficult situation for themselves here. Of course they can just change their goals and still deliver an awesome but less ambitious game, but that may lead to quite a lot of refunds.

Pretty much sums up most of what I think.

[Swordarm]

*dito* good post Ylvali!

The issue is that David has set an high standard in the past and high goals for Overgrowth. Merely a sandbox figthing engine would be a big letdown for us fans and preorders but of course a shame when you think about the potential.
Of course, releasing a game is better than a dying project (finances, lack of time, relevance, ...) but it would be such an aweful shame. Thus my concerns, I simply do not want to brace myself for a product that is merely a sandbox figthing engine.

As I said, I would love to have some form of official statement here, addressing concerns of the community is part of Open Door Development too.

[David]

Our current plans regarding the arena and raider mode include a lot of writing and a lot of 2D painting, so it shouldn't disappoint anyone who is looking for that. However, it won't be structured in a long, linear story along the lines of a jRPG. We are testing out some prototypes to figure out exactly how it should fit together.

For now we are using the arena and raider modes to add some larger context to the technology that we already have, so that we can progress from a sandbox fighting engine to a proper game that is playable and fun from start to finish. Overgrowth already has a lot of disconnected features, so we need to knit them together and balance them before considering adding new ones.

[akazi]

Thanks for posting David, you are awesome. So the arena and raider mode are going to be turned into somewhat of a story type of thing. I assume you guys are going to still have the challenge type game mode still?

[Karel]

Seems logical, I'm looking forward for more arena impovement then.