Compare of Lugaru - and Overgrowth-Fighting-System

[Ujio]

Hi folks!

Now that overgrowth is in beta, i downloaded it again since I haven't loaded any alpha for very long.

I have to admit that I don't have fun with overgrowth, although I am a huge Lugaru fan.

First problem is, that overgrowth lacks and crashes very often, although my mac isn't the oldest... Even when i turn the graphics on the lowest possible...

But thats not what I wanted to talk about here. What doesn't make Overgrowth fun for me is the fighting system. In Lugaru I was able to fight multiple enemies, even though they were armed, it was very fun to rabbit-kick some of them that knocked out the others etc. In Lugaru I also wasn't killed so quickly.

In Overgrowth in my opinion al this is different. I am not even able to fight one armed enemyy, mainly because the right mouse klick to block / unarm doesn't work very well for me. In Lugaru with shift it was much easier. also the enemy-Blocks are very strong, often I don't even get one hit threw the enemy's block...

In my opinion in Overgrowth the weapons are to strong, I think that there is to much focus on the weapons. In Lugaru they were funny to have and made it easier to kill the enemies, but in Overgrowth I have the feeling that I have no chance if I dont use them.

What do you think about both combat-systems? Anyone else missing the Lugaru-style?

Greetings,
Ujio

[EPR89]

I have to say that I have very limited experience with Lugaru. Mainly because the combat did NOT do it for me.

I totally agree with the weapons. They are currently too fast, more than anything. I can get behind them being strong, but if they are also faster than unarmed attacks, they just become unbalanced. The dog broadsword is great in my opinion. It kills in one hit, but it is slow enough that you can dodge once you've become a bit more familiar with the controls. And a successful dodge usually create an opening for an attack that will be faster than a potential follow up with the sword.
All the other weapons are faster in their distance than unarmed attacks. And the knife even allows you to move around freely. The only balancing element there is that knife slashes don't stop attacks. But the knife damage is permanent, in contrast to the unarmed blunt damage. So the knife is still overpowered in the end.

Now for unarmed combat, I vastly prefer Overgrowth. Especially the blocking feels much more natural to me than the default duck in Lugaru.
Overgrowth feels more fluent to me than Lugaru and I think it's due to the controls and the attack movements. Turner's moveset is just great. Every distance has its attack and all the attacks have their place. The long range attacks have good reach, but are slow enough to allow you to react to them. The close range ones are fast, but you first have to get there (especially against the broad sword). The sweep is slow as hell, but if you use it to counter high attacks it's basically a guaranteed hit.
The defensive moves are great too. The block has tricky timing, but allows you to stay in the pocket and retaliate immediately. The back dodge gets you in a safe distance, but usually out of range for an attack. The sideways dodges leave you in range, so you have to think about a follow-up.

In one on one unarmed or broad sword setups, Overgrowth's system feels much more natural to me than Lugaru ever did. Lugaru relied too much on reversals. Occasionally I had the feeling that it was useless to attack in Lugaru, since I'd only get countered anyway. In Overgrowth it feels much more like an actual fight to me. However, in my opinion the counters are actually way too easy to hit, even if the block timing can be tricky against weapons. I'd counters to get nerfed and the throw to be more difficult to perform (in Last's Blood mod you could set it to only trigger when you held block and tapped the attack key), so that a successful block doesn't basically automatically leads to a throw attempt, but it's already much better than in Lugaru with it's reversal battles.

Multiple opponents are definitely a problem and the weapons besides the broadsword are also a huge issue. Maybe something like crowd control could be a solution. Ragdolls already cause opponents to trip over them if they hit with enough force. Maybe hits that don't ragdoll opponents could move them a bit more and cause staggers if they get in the way of characters nearby. That way directional attacks like the roundhouse kick could get a new tactical aspect by directing opponents into each other to get them off your back for a bit.
And maybe some attacks can have friendly fire or multiple targets. A wild sword swing could injure nearby characters, even if they are not the target or on the same team.

[Ujio]

Well I guess it is a lot because of my lacking overgrowth that I can't get into the controls. I am so used to Lugaru, that I automatically hit shift every time an opponent attacks me I just can't get into the right-klick.

I do not agree with Lugaru being a reversal fight. sometimes there were reversals, but mostly when I attacked an opponent (without weapon) he didn't do a reversal, an if so I found the chance to escape was ok, me myself maybe escaped 50% of the reversals.

I do agree that in Lugaru the weapon-reversals were to easy. there was nearly no chance to hit an opponent with the sword or the stick, because you'd always be reversaled. But the Stick was great to hit opponents that lay on the ground

Another thing that you mentioned may make a difference: In Lugaru the sweep was very fast. It was nearly always possible to knock an opponent of his legs when he ran at you, that was especially useful while fighting multiple enemies. In Lugaru the opponents where also knocked back more from attacks, so that you could separate them for a short time, as you mentioned.

What do you think about the leg cannon? I always loved it to run into a crowd and leg-cannon them all in Lugaru I really miss that in Overgrowth.

I'll try to change controls so that blocking is on shift in overgrowth, maybe it is more intuitive then for me although i will have problems with performing sweeps then...

[Gifted]

I've played both a lot. OG's combat is far better, takes a long time to really get good at it though. I wish they would add something for multiple enemies fighting though. Like a way to quickly attack twice in a row, two different targets. Something like that. Because right now it's virtually impossible to beat multiple opponents.

You can dodge perfect and then attack, but you can't dodge while you attack so you get hit. Even in slow motion you can't do it. I'd like a way with perfect play to overcome multiple enemies. Afterall turner is the hero because he's amazing at fighting... i think it's okay to have some advantage over the enemy.

[Ujio]

One thing more:

I really do admit that OG fighting system is more realistic, what was probably a main intention of the creators.

I do Martial arts myself, and I do now how difficult it is to fight someone who has a knife and knows how to use it. It is very difficult to get it without being cut at the arms/hands.

I even do know how difficult it is to fight to opponents that habe equal levels as I have, the only chance ist to get them in one row and hindering each other. but even then you need some lucky strikes...

[DoctorGester]

I feel like weapon combat is mostly fine, except for the knives, they are just too fast. Everything else you can dodge + disarm with a little practice.

Multiple enemies fighting is definitely an issue, the game currently is about beating everyone 1v1.

[Gifted]

IMO the knife isn't bad. You can usually disarm with only taking 1 swipe max. I think that's pretty realistic for stealing a knife.

[DoctorGester]

Just an opinion but I kinda dislike how it usually snowballs when an enemy has a knife if you don't dodge the first 1-2 attacks.

[Gifted]

True. Still pretty realistic though.

I hope the combat can be modified through mods... and enough people play the game that we get some amazing shit. I love the current combat and would like to see it taken much further.

[Xagor-The-Ninja]

What do you think about the leg cannon? I always loved it to run into a crowd and leg-cannon them all in Lugaru I really miss that in Overgrowth.

I have to agree with that, for sure.... I feel like rabbit kick in overgrowth is kinda of an OP (but sometimes necessary) cheap shot, especially when dealing with multiple targets concurrently... but I really miss being able to use corpses as weapons. Yes, you can ragdoll enemies into each other, but ummm... no, you really can't anymore. That's almost certainly the result of the better physics in OG, but that doesn't make it any more fun. That, and being able to kick downed corpses directly into people.... that was spectacular. I loved setting up traps, and being able to drag corpses around and position them perfectly would really lend itself well to that.

I do think it's absolutely ridiculous how thrown weapons are treated in OG... if they aren't in the air or bent over doing something else, they just catch it. Like... even if they're facing another way, half the time they just magically catch what you threw at them. Seems a little silly to me, and takes a bit of fun out for me. I guess it'd be different if you could maybe get a pack of throwing knives or something, where losing them wouldn't be a big deal, but I really feel like those mechanics take away from the feeling of adaptability in combat - just seems cheap to kite an enemy to get a jump just so you can throw a knife into them.

[AmorphousGamer]

You can definitely fight multiple opponents at once. It's very reliant on positioning and efficient attacks. Not easy, especially if either of the opponents are challenging on their own. That's just logical, it's hard to fight multiple people at once.

I agree about thrown weapons though. Even if the enemy is fighting someone else, back turned, it feels like 80% of the time they'll catch a thrown knife. Definitely should be something that requires a little more focus, so they can either fight someone or catch a knife. Not both.

[Ujio]

I miss the dead-body-throw, too. Especially against wolves it has always been very effective...

Weapon-catching surely is to strong espeacially when they want to have a close-to-reality fighting system

[tobshmob]

im personally hoping for more fighting moves in overgrowth, i read somewhere that the final version should have even more moves than lugaru. the wall kick comes to mind, aswell as the low-kick block that turns intoa backwards cartwheel. david said that the animal run will make a comeback, but do you guys know of any other fighting moves that are still gonna come?