Invisible walls

A secret forum for people who preorder Overgrowth!
Post Reply
User avatar
Johannes
Posts: 1374
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:26 am
Contact:

Re: Invisible walls

Post by Johannes » Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:51 pm

StrangezThingez wrote:There should be some form of ambush waiting on the edges of the map that rip you to shreds or something. For example, if it's a map where you must fight warriors from a certain faction, you will be slain by archers from the same faction if you stray too far from the map.

Or to make it more generic, you can be swept up by a giant falcon and eaten. Or a hand from the skies just comes and slap you to death. :P
Enemy encounters would be a baaaaaaaad way to solve this problem; they would falsely make the player think that going there is the right thing to do.

Being eaten or taken by various over-sized creatures has already been mentioned a few times, though I don't see how this could be made to work with the canon and make sense in the storry... except ofcourse whaleman ;P

User avatar
RazZziel
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:15 pm
Location: /dev/random
Contact:

Re: Invisible walls

Post by RazZziel » Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:10 am

jo-shadow wrote:except ofcourse whaleman ;P
I think I really like the idea of Whaleman suddenly falling from the sky above us, goomba-crushing us, and then walking away like if he didn't realize (and it doesn't really have to fit in the story, actually a bit o nonsense can guide the player into thinking it's an artifact to avoid going somewhere, and not part of the story). Depending on the ambientation of the game, maybe as the player approaches to an edge he can start reading on the screen a message, like a "whisper", someone saying "That's not where your destiny lies, Turner" or "Please don't fail me now, Turner" or "You are doing it wrong, Turner", and when he gets to the edge, goomba.

Bonus points if Turner manages to aikido-master him, even if then we have to kill him with a falling flowerpot or something. Anyhow, I wouldn't want to see the player automatically turning, it'd be frustrating; and any kind of invisible wall would work but feel maybe too artificial.

User avatar
Johannes
Posts: 1374
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:26 am
Contact:

Re: Invisible walls

Post by Johannes » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:29 am

RazZziel wrote:
jo-shadow wrote:except ofcourse whaleman ;P
I think I really like the idea of Whaleman suddenly falling from the sky above us, goomba-crushing us, and then walking away like if he didn't realize (and it doesn't really have to fit in the story, actually a bit o nonsense can guide the player into thinking it's an artifact to avoid going somewhere, and not part of the story). Depending on the ambientation of the game, maybe as the player approaches to an edge he can start reading on the screen a message, like a "whisper", someone saying "That's not where your destiny lies, Turner" or "Please don't fail me now, Turner" or "You are doing it wrong, Turner", and when he gets to the edge, goomba.

Bonus points if Turner manages to aikido-master him, even if then we have to kill him with a falling flowerpot or something. Anyhow, I wouldn't want to see the player automatically turning, it'd be frustrating; and any kind of invisible wall would work but feel maybe too artificial.
bwahahaha, oh I hope we'll be able to make our own ragdolls cause I wanna make a giant whaleman to do just this XD

User avatar
Wilbefast
Posts: 1204
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:32 pm
Location: In a sealed box shielded against environmentally induced quantum decoherence
Contact:

Re: Invisible walls

Post by Wilbefast » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:02 am

Glabbit wrote:
Wilbefast wrote:
tomascokis wrote:No automatic u-turn.
Agreed: no loss of player control, nothing automatic - I hate the word as I hate hell, all Montagues and thee - have at thee coward! (they fight).
You're a Capulet? D=
I love Shakespeare, probably because he has the same first name as me - all Williams are, of course, fantastic :D

User avatar
Glabbit
Posts: 4917
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:38 am
Location: A mile away, with your shoes!

Re: Invisible walls

Post by Glabbit » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:49 am

I'd disagree. There are always exceptions =p

User avatar
Count Roland
Posts: 2937
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:15 pm
Location: Galapagos Islands, rodeoin some turtles.
Contact:

Re: Invisible walls

Post by Count Roland » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:25 pm

never met an exception yet. have the past three people in my fathers line named william and they all turned out well.

Mango
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:31 am
Location: Australia

Re: Invisible walls

Post by Mango » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:01 am

I don't reckon an infinite landscape is a good idea, especially if Overgrowth will be in areas with lots plains. You run for a bit, thinking "Cool, how far out can I go!" then "Hmm... I stopped seeing trees a while back. This all looks the same." then "Um... ok which way did I come from? Ah, screw this <QUICKLOAD>". This ruins the immersiveness when thats one of the points of the idea.

My 2 cents is this, and yes I know it might not fit in with what the devs are planning, but hey:
Overgrowth is set on an archipelago (Far Cry anyone?) where Turner has gone into exile.

Thats what I really liked about the original Far Cry. You could go to nearly every spot on the island, and certainly see everywhere, and be given the freedom to approach scenarios a different way each time. Also, I'd be the first to suggest implementing Hang-Gliders :D

Other ideas:
Unscalable mountains
Canyon walls
...
Hmm was just reminded of Spyro. So yeah, how about falling off the map and dying? (Oh, and you have to pick up gems.)

User avatar
Wilbefast
Posts: 1204
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:32 pm
Location: In a sealed box shielded against environmentally induced quantum decoherence
Contact:

Re: Invisible walls

Post by Wilbefast » Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:04 am

Mango wrote:Other ideas:
Unscalable mountains
Canyon walls
Any sequel of Lugaru needs to have open space, other wise it's one step forward and two steps back - putting walls everywhere is a very easy way of solving the problem, and doesn't look unrealistic, but constrains and funnels the player towards an objective, and I think the whole point of Overgrowth's open environments is to let the player approach the objective from any direction (=> scouting out the area, looking for weak links could become part of the gameplay - as I guess it was to a degree in Farcry).

Incidently Far Cry had a good example of a "monster-that-appears-and-kills-you-if-you-stray-off-course": the helicopter.

Nico
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 12:41 pm

Re: Invisible walls

Post by Nico » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:42 pm

To add to an old discussion...

After reading through this thread, two things popped into my mind.

First, I really like the idea of slowing the player down as they approach the barrier. If a wall must be implemented, I think this is the most elegant way of doing it. As long as the barrier is not too far from the playable level, they should be able to find their way back.

Secondly, I think there is one dynamic that hasn't been mentioned as a way to discourage the play from straying too far from the battlefield. If Overgrowth has cutscenes in a similar manner as Lugaru, then this has great potential. For example, let's imagine the player is running away from the intended level: at first, he enters a cutscene where two or three rats appear behind him and yell "Oi, where do you think your going?", to which the player can respond, or another rat can humorously say to the leader, "Why do we care - lets just get his goodies!". At this point, Turner has to fight off a wave of, in the very beginning at least, weak enemies. Gradually, these waves get stronger until Turner is overwhelmed. First he can fight rats, then maybe more rats and some dogs, all the way of the food-chain until the player has to face wolves (unless, of course, the whaleman is the top of a food-chain...)

The advantage of this method being:
• the enemies can appear essentially out of nowhere (as if they had been sneaking of on Turner) using cutscenes
• the cutscenes could have dialog which would hint at the proper direction for the player to go, and give a sense of how far the player has gone off the level when they run into growling herds of wolfs chasing them
• the player doesn't feel like they are being stopped by a wall, but instead that they have a chance to overcome it. Thus, it doesn't limit the sense of open-worldly-ness.
• fighting waves of enemies is going to be a lot of fun for the player, and it may even take on a scoring system that can be submitted for competition with other players (a mini-game of sorts)
• if, at any time, a player wants to return to the level, there would be an option to do so, at which point, instead of attacking the player, the looters would tell Turner to stay out of their territory and point out the way "home".

This method, I believe, would actually enhance the sense being in the Overgrowth world, where survival is difficult and victory is hard to come by. The player wouldn't feel safe by running away from their enemy, but might actually rather face their enemy (like they are supposed to). A lot of work for the Wolfire team, I know, but it may very well be the best way to keep the player immersed in the world, and interested for survival's sake (as it would happen in the animal kingdom, not just instantly contracting horrible spontaneous combustion syndromes).
Last edited by Nico on Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
zamzx zik
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:11 pm
Location: Pasadina, MD
Contact:

Re: Invisible walls

Post by zamzx zik » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:35 pm

I like this idea

User avatar
Glabbit
Posts: 4917
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:38 am
Location: A mile away, with your shoes!

Re: Invisible walls

Post by Glabbit » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:39 pm

Apart from the fact that some people might think it part of the game and end up screaming "WTHAX I CNT BEET DIS LVL U SUXORZ PL0X!?!?!??!!!!", I fully agree that this idea does indeed have some intriguing potential.

Healey

Re: Invisible walls

Post by Healey » Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:13 am

This would be a good reason to add water. Since it is an island, water would surround the map and it would be to deep for Turner to swim in, therefor he would catch a current that would drown him.

User avatar
TheBigCheese
Posts: 856
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:01 am
Location: Lost in the Alps.

Re: Invisible walls

Post by TheBigCheese » Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:40 am

Healey wrote:This would be a good reason to add water. Since it is an island, water would surround the map and it would be to deep for Turner to swim in, therefor he would catch a current that would drown him.
The problem is that the entire map couldn't be surrounded by water, only one side. And then you can't have all of the maps on the coast.

I like the idea of fighting enemies, but I worry that it would draw too much attention away from the actual level, along with the continuity problems with enemies appearing out of nowhere.

Just had a random idea, what about if time began to slow down as you walked farther out, you could still walk, giving the illusion of open space, but you wouldn't get anywhere, since time would slow down exponentially.

User avatar
Wilbefast
Posts: 1204
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:32 pm
Location: In a sealed box shielded against environmentally induced quantum decoherence
Contact:

Re: Invisible walls

Post by Wilbefast » Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:38 pm

I like your new beard Cheese - not so much the new idea though (Nico's), for a few reasons:

1. Cutscenes imply that you're making the story progress, in other words going to right way, even if you're literally being told that you're going the wrong way. This is especially true if the people saying "you're going the wrong way" are your enemies.
2. Likewise spawning enemies, indeed, any scripted, hotspot event will make the player think that they're going a way the designers have envisaged, and continue.
3. A lot of work would have to go into making each series of "wrong way" cutscenes for each level, and they'd still feel generic very quickly.
4. People play the game because they want to fight stuff, so you'd effectively be rewarding them for going off course, encouraging them not to play your game - especially if said enemies have weapons you could pilfer.
5. If the player has a chance of winning, they'll keep trying until they win - maybe they'll just run past the border guards and make for the horizon. Eventually you'll need an invisible wall to stop them falling off the edge, whatever the case.

So you need some kind of invulnerable, inescapable... thing that kills you off if you stray, and which needs to make sense in the story: try doing that without making it feel extremely contrived!
And anyway, at the end of the day, the level design should be good enough that the objective is self-evident - so if the player goes off course they know that they're going off course because they knew from the beginning where they should be going. And if they know they're going off course they'll accept some constraints.
There was never really any confusion in Lugaru: there was an obvious place of interest where the action was concentrated. You could just as easily have several by joining them with roads with signposts and patrols. These would help provide a map of the area in a seemless, intuitive, and above all optional fashion.

User avatar
TheBigCheese
Posts: 856
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:01 am
Location: Lost in the Alps.

Re: Invisible walls

Post by TheBigCheese » Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:31 pm

What about procedurally infinite terrain based off a simple noise function? It could basically just be an infinite terrain in any direction generated with a random seed based on the position away from the center of the map. All terrain could degenerate into rolling hills, or if it's sandy, maybe a noise function could be worked out to copy it.

It would take a lot more effort, but the terrain would effectively be infinite, and the player would never have to hit a wall.

And then after traveling a few miles out, players would get stomped on by the whale man. :mrgreen:

Post Reply