new OverGrowth editor feature idea - Lock grid

[Ninjas]

But I tried it this way.
I pushed the object away, then put the camera in the right place (the viewing direction parallel to the plane where I want the object's side to be), then pulled the object. Then I did the same to those two other axis. It took me 1 minute to align one block to another and even then it wasn't perfect!
Maybe you can think one more time about the feature?

I think you are giving people an unrealistic impression about the quality of our tools. I can perfectly align 10 blocks in 20 seconds without even trying hard, and having used many different 3D editing tools, I can say ours is in among the best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taX4h3Ua ... annel_page
At around 3:10 in the video you can see how our snapping works. It is really very simple and fast.

[TheBigCheese]

But I tried it this way.
I pushed the object away, then put the camera in the right place (the viewing direction parallel to the plane where I want the object's side to be), then pulled the object. Then I did the same to those two other axis. It took me 1 minute to align one block to another and even then it wasn't perfect!
Maybe you can think one more time about the feature?

I think you are giving people an unrealistic impression about the quality of our tools. I can perfectly align 10 blocks in 20 seconds without even trying hard, and having used many different 3D editing tools, I can say ours is in among the best.

But this does not allow for snapping newly created objects to current objects. When you spawn an object on the map, it is placed on the face that you've clicked on. If the new block is not perfectly aligned with the other, then you can't snap along the same grid.

Also, the snapping grid is stretched when the object is, which further keeps you from aligning properly.

On a side note, being able to retexture the default block, or all objects would make things a great deal easier, rather than having to create a new block for each new texture you need.

[GDer]

If the new block is not perfectly aligned with the other, then you can't snap along the same grid.

That's why I used different blocks to show the problem. I wouldn't like to make the building starting with one kind of blocks and ending with another. I'd like to build it like everyone does - from bottom to top.

I can say ours is in among the best.

I don't say it isn't but this feature could make it even better.

but for OG, we are going for a different look

It may not be so useful for you but there will be houses that should have walls without weird seams, right? This feature could also help you avoid z-fighting issues. But, of course, it's your tool, your decision, how you want to work.

[Kudoku]

I believe it would be most appropriate if there were (in the final game of course) two separate map editor types. The one in-game would be for not-so-techy people to fool around with, which includes the current snapping system. Another separate app would allow for more fine tuning and a standardized grid instead, like hammer. That way, user created maps are still easy to create the in-game way, but high quality maps are also possible.

[TheBigCheese]

I believe it would be most appropriate if there were (in the final game of course) two separate map editor types. The one in-game would be for not-so-techy people to fool around with, which includes the current snapping system. Another separate app would allow for more fine tuning and a standardized grid instead, like hammer. That way, user created maps are still easy to create the in-game way, but high quality maps are also possible.

I would be in complete support of that idea. Once you use Hammer a bit, it's not as difficult as most people make it out to be, and it's extremely powerful.

[Kudoku]

Agreed. There's a reason Valve uses Hammer to make their maps as opposed to super expensive professional software. It's just so damn flexible. If you look at some of the Episode 2 maps, they are incredibly detailed. These maps are of a professional calibre, but what tool do they use to make them? Hammer, of course!

Low quality map? Hammer.
Frigging beautiful map? Hammer.
Gigantic map? Hammer.
Tiny map? Hammer.
Interactive map? Hammer.

So yeah, enough about hammer. It would be really nice if this idea was applied to OG.

[Endoperez]

Low quality map? Hammer.
Frigging beautiful map? Hammer.
Gigantic map? Hammer.
Tiny map? Hammer.
Interactive map? Hammer.

"When all you have is Hammer, all problems start looking like nails."
Also, I think Phoenix already does gigantic and beautiful. Interactive is just getting possible. I wonder how long Phoenix has before it is better than Hammer?

[Skofo]

I think there are a lot of really cool ideas here. Thanks for the suggestions GDer! (and you others who have suggested similar things in the past). I'd like to eventually come back to snaps, and if I do, I'll definitely take these ideas into account.

But, we can only do so much, and right now we have a bunch of higher priorities to get through first. As Aubrey pointed out, better snaps would be essential for, say, a futuristic space station game, but for OG, we are going for a different look. I don't think we'll need a full grid system for the types of levels we'll have. Still, it would be cool as icing. Maybe once the core stuff is done, we can come back to it.

Snaps aren't needed just for futuristic levels. It'd help a lot for building even houses. I don't know about you, but I don't want all of my houses to look messy and lopsided unless I spend extra time and energy on them than I could if there was better snapping.

Plus, if someone wanted to make a futuristic map, I say that there is no reason why they shouldn't have the power to. I say make the map editor flexible, not specialized towards just post-apocalyptic valleys with random stones lying around. I think you underestimate the epic things that could be modded if you just made the editors flexible.

[Hale]

I haven't followed most of this thread, but as far as the beginning statement goes, the idea is pretty much worthless. I'm not one to boast, but I didn't need a grid locking system for any of my maps, and so far everyone else has done fine without it as well...

[Jeff]

I say that there is no reason why they shouldn't have the power to.

Here's one reason: we want to ship Overgrowth this decade.

[Skofo]

I say that there is no reason why they shouldn't have the power to.

Here's one reason: we want to ship Overgrowth this decade.

Sure, but you want Overgrowth to be good, right? I really think that you're underestimating the value of having a flexible map editor. I predict that one of the main selling points, if not the selling point of Overgrowth will be the mods and moddability of it, akin to Cortex Command. With Overgrowth's map editor (even now), the JavaScript scripting and the planned mod browser, Overgrowth is already (planned to be) one of the most easy to mod games out there, and people will utilize that. Don't underestimate the value of community-generated content! Just look at Half-Life 2 and LittleBigPlanet.

I think I shed a tear of happiness the first time you mentioned that people will be able to recreate Tetris in Overgrowth.

But if you honestly just want to ship Overgrowth as soon as possible without paying attention to the worthwhile features, perhaps you should also cut out fighting.

[matto1990]

I say that there is no reason why they shouldn't have the power to.

Here's one reason: we want to ship Overgrowth this decade.

Sure, but you want Overgrowth to be good, right? I really think that you're underestimating the value of having a flexible map editor. I predict that one of the main selling points, if not the selling point of Overgrowth will be the mods and moddability of it, akin to Cortex Command. With Overgrowth's map editor (even now), the JavaScript scripting and the planned mod browser, Overgrowth is already (planned to be) one of the most easy to mod games out there, and people will utilize that. Don't underestimate the value of community-generated content! Just look at Half-Life 2 and LittleBigPlanet.

I think I shed a tear of happiness the first time you mentioned that people will be able to recreate Tetris in Overgrowth.

But if you honestly just want to ship Overgrowth as soon as possible without paying attention to the worthwhile features, perhaps you should also cut out fighting.

Seeing as they havent actually got down to making any of the maps, levels or anything yet I think it's a bit bad to be asking them to be working on the mod tools. Sure, it's nice to have a massively powerful mod editor, but the game wont sell if they havent made the story work well.

There's also the option to add more to the editor after the games release as well. However people dont pay $30 for a mod editor, they pay $30 for a game to play.

[Skofo]

I think it's a bit bad to be asking them to be working on the mod tools.

The mod tools are exactly what they should be working on, seeing as they'll be making all of the "maps, levels or anything" with them.

And I imagine that it might be hard to make the mod tools more flexible or change core features of them after everything is already created with them.

So I don't know what you're talking about; this is the perfect time to be asking for this.

Besides, I'm not even asking for much! Just grid locking and perfect top/bottom/side-views. That's actually the bare necessity of 99% of map creation tools out there, and for a good reason too. It's very, very likely to help even Wolfire's mappers.

[matto1990]

From what I read from Phillips post on the end of page 1 it seems they dont agree with you on how important a feature it is. I do this it's a great feature to have as I love it in Hammer, but aparently it isnt essential for them at the minute.

[Ninjas]

Hammer has had 13 years of development. Our tools have had about 6 months. Also Hammer is supported by Valve. They are a little bit bigger than us.

We are going to keep working on the editor to make it better. We are going to be adding lots of cool features like an animation editor, rigging editor, particle effects editor and physics object editor-- all of which are critical to making our game.

I heard in the dev commentary for TF2 that they finally developed a particle editor at Valve (after 10 years of making hugely successful games and making tens of millions of dollars), but I think it isn't in Hammer.

I have no problems at all using the tools we have to make buildings. Also, our game is not about buildings or cities. It is about wilderness, so all the stuff to make buildings in the game is kind of extra.