RPG Mod

[Healey]

Suggestions:
1. Make one race neutral, due to the odd number of races
2. Make it so you are able to just run around and kill stuff and raid places, I don't wanna hav'ta do quests for eternity...

sounds fun

[Skofo]

I don't understand why you keep calling it a "small OpenGL engine", as if the fact that it is OpenGL makes it somehow less impressive. Do you even know what you are talking about when you say that?

I definitely wouldn't call the Phoenix Engine "very, very basic" compared to even today's AAA titles. What the team had finished before rewriting Lugaru 2 as Overgrowth is very comparable to even AAA titles in terms of prettiness (which is pretty much what "AAA titles" are defined by), and the map editor, even in its current form, is much more advanced than the ones found in certain AAA engines (I'm looking at you, Source). Also, realize that this AAA talk is irrelevant when it comes to feasibility of making MMOGs; MMOG net code is not much harder to make for a multi-million dollar budget game than it is for a random 5th grader hobbyist 2D game; the brunt of the work is simply sending player input to the server and making the server send the appropriate output back. How pretty the game is, or whether it is made in OpenGL, is irrelevant.

I realize that Runescape is what it is today after many years of development, but that doesn't disqualify it from being an MMORPG when it first started out, before the many years of development. We are not talking about just insanely popular MMORPGs, we are talking about games with multiplayer code scalable to massive amounts of players.

RuneScape is only one of many examples of basement MMOGs. When I left the Game Maker Community some years ago, making MMOGs was all the rage. I wouldn't be surprised if everyone there had their own. BYOND is practically made for making MMOGs; it isn't hard to find a BYOND game with hundreds of players active at any given time. MUDs are very often made by very small teams as well, and they still exist and are played today. Web-based MMOGs are in the same boat. South Korea is the home of half-assed grindfests; everyone has their own MMOG in South Korea like everyone has their own blog in America.

I really think you are vastly overestimating the required development effort of MMOGs. It really seems like you're just repeating the words of someone else who is just as clueless. It is not much tougher to make an MMORPG than it is to make a regular, single player RPG; the hardest part is by far the 'RPG' part, not the 'MMO' part. If you know what you're doing, you can make an MMOG framework in less than an hour.

Like I said, nothing is impossible. This type of thing isn't even close. I think that you do not have the slightest clue as to what you are talking about.

When it comes to game development you have to start off small, as small as you can.

Care to show me some of those games you made, oh wise one?

[Richie Rabbit]

Oh snap. Skofo unleashing his vast knowledge.

[Mykei]

I don't understand why you keep calling it a "small OpenGL engine", as if the fact that it is OpenGL makes it somehow less impressive. Do you even know what you are talking about when you say that?

I definitely wouldn't call the Phoenix Engine "very, very basic" compared to even today's AAA titles. What the team had finished before rewriting Lugaru 2 as Overgrowth is very comparable to even AAA titles in terms of prettiness (which is pretty much what "AAA titles" are defined by), and the map editor, even in its current form, is much more advanced than the ones found in certain AAA engines (I'm looking at you, Source). Also, realize that this AAA talk is irrelevant when it comes to feasibility of making MMOGs; MMOG net code is not much harder to make for a multi-million dollar budget game than it is for a random 5th grader hobbyist 2D game; the brunt of the work is simply sending player input to the server and making the server send the appropriate output back. How pretty the game is, or whether it is made in OpenGL, is irrelevant.

I realize that Runescape is what it is today after many years of development, but that doesn't disqualify it from being an MMORPG when it first started out, before the many years of development. We are not talking about just insanely popular MMORPGs, we are talking about games with multiplayer code scalable to massive amounts of players.

RuneScape is only one of many examples of basement MMOGs. When I left the Game Maker Community some years ago, making MMOGs was all the rage. I wouldn't be surprised if everyone there had their own. BYOND is practically made for making MMOGs; it isn't hard to find a BYOND game with hundreds of players active at any given time. MUDs are very often made by very small teams as well, and they still exist and are played today. Web-based MMOGs are in the same boat. South Korea is the home of half-assed grindfests; everyone has their own MMOG in South Korea like everyone has their own blog in America.

I really think you are vastly overestimating the required development effort of MMOGs. It really seems like you're just repeating the words of someone else who is just as clueless. It is not much tougher to make an MMORPG than it is to make a regular, single player RPG; the hardest part is by far the 'RPG' part, not the 'MMO' part. If you know what you're doing, you can make an MMOG framework in less than an hour.

Like I said, nothing is impossible. This type of thing isn't even close. I think that you do not have the slightest clue as to what you are talking about.

When it comes to game development you have to start off small, as small as you can.

Care to show me some of those games you made, oh wise one?

I stopped reading when you said you were apart of the gamemaker community. Using gamemaker does not make you a game developer.

If you know what you're doing, you can make an MMOG framework in less than an hour.

Irrelevant, read the thread title. This thread is about making Overgrowth a MMOG. With the tools we currently have, it's impossible. I'm not doubting that it's possible to "make a mmo framework" in less than a hour but it's completely beside the point. Please try and stay on topic Mr gamemaker. I may have to buy you a C++ book for your birthday
x


Also, you seem to get very upset when I call OG a small OpenGL engine. The OpenGL part isn't an insult, I just thought I would include it seeing as there are vast amounts of OpenGL tutorials that will pretty much teach you 90% of what the engine can do.

[Skofo]

I don't know how you could put so much wrong in three little paragraphs.

But since you don't even have the courtesy to read what I am saying in full, you have proven that you are not here to debate, you are here to troll me. Consider your mission accomplished. I am done here.

[Endoperez]

I stopped reading when you said you were apart of the gamemaker community. Using gamemaker does not make you a game developer.

In just two sentences, you've managed to insult the intelligence of yourself, Skofo, and everyone who has made or played Game Maker games. Way to go!

Someone who makes games is more qualified to speak about game development than someone who doesn't. This is true even if the games are bad and/or uncommercial. Furthermore, even if you think Game Maker is bad, poor tools only slow and limit development. The end result may still be enjoyable. Like Iji, which was made in Game Maker and which has gathered favourable attention, even in this forum. The graphics are poor, but the "alignment" mechanism was pulled off very well.

Irrelevant, read the thread title. This thread is about making Overgrowth a MMOG. With the tools we currently have, it's impossible. I'm not doubting that it's possible to "make a mmo framework" in less than a hour but it's completely beside the point.

That said, I also doubt a mod can change networking code or add new type of client/server interaction. I'd be interested to read any articles if Skofo can link to anything. I only found these:

http://www.gameogre.com/mmorpgdev.htm

and while I haven't read all of them, I haven't yet found any examples or suggestions for how to use or convert existing, non-MMO engines in an MMO game. Some of them do point out problems unique to MMO and/or multiplayer games.

[Skofo]

I don't have any links, but it would be fairly easy to make MMO mod for Overgrowth if Overgrowth had two things. The first thing is multiplayer code that makes the server not send info to clients about other clients who are not visible to them, or at least make that moddable. The second thing is letting players travel through multiple maps in multiplayer games, or making that moddable, be it "seamlessly" where the player barely notices new maps being loaded like in WoW and RuneScape, or very obviously "teleporting" to other maps when you reach the edges a la Guild Wars and Maple Story. If Overgrowth featured both of those things, then it'd be fairly trivial making an MMO mod for Overgrowth, as all that is needed for at least a barebones MMO is scalability for massive worlds and making the client and server programs able to scale to feasibly handle massive amounts of players. And it actually isn't all that improbable that Overgrowth will have those features; inter-map traveling would be useful for an adventure mode for Overgrowth anyway, and making the server not send info to clients about other clients who aren't visible to them can only help and wouldn't negatively impact anything in any case.

The hardest way to make an MMO mod for Overgrowth would opening Overgrowth's data in a hex editor and finding what the specific values do and adjusting them to do what I mentioned above. Pretty damn advanced hex edited mods have been done in games like Cave Story, so it is possible (if not very feasible). Again, everything is possible.

[Endoperez]

Pretty damn advanced hex edited mods have been done in games like Cave Story, so it is possible (if not very feasible). Again, everything is possible.

I tried coming up with a proper reply, but I don't know enough to continue arguing. Even if a MMORPG mod isn't impossible, it's still quite unfeasible. Unlike non-MMO rpg mods. Which this thread was about.

What kind of an RPG mod would people like to see, any way?

Since the combat is one of the big selling points of Overgrowth, I don't think a RPG mod should include stats in any huge role. The character development can be done with items. Think of the Zelda games and others like them, where each new item is a major boost. Some examples would be a thingamabob that lets you double jump, glider cloak/wings/apparatus, grappling hook, bow and arrows, the right to use cool knight armor only elite enemies and guards had previously, and an ostrich-horse.

Personally, I'd be most interested in the kind where the emphasis isn't on the grinding (shock! how dare they tarnish the image of Diablo?! ) but on story and characters and world. In text, that is, and that's lots of work even if none of the gameplay elements are changed.
Bad example: "I'm a tanner, so I'll give you 5 gold for every 25 skins you bring" -> grinding for gold
Good example: "the miller is smitten with Polly the innkeeper" -> romance subplot where the reward is immaterial and/or indirect, such as the miller now gladly paying for extra help so that he can finish his work earlier.


The new powers wouldn't be that hard to implement (compared to converting Overgrowth into Diablo clone, or creating a Morrowind-inspired skill system), but level design and amount of well-written text this kind of a project would require would be immense.

[Jeff]

Wow, it's great to have you as a fan Mykei. Thanks for the vote of confidence. It's awesome when a hardcore fan tells you that your game is just the culmination of a few OpenGL tutorials and your game has no chance against the competition.

[Count Roland]

Gotta say mykei, you seemed alright at first, you know pre ordering OG and all, but I think I've now reclassified you as a negative douche. That is to say, not that you're exactly the opposite of a douche in personality, just that you're the opposite of a douche in function, meaning you shit on everything.

[Richie Rabbit]

lol wow

[Endoperez]

Gotta say mykei, you seemed alright at first,

Pot, meet kettle.

There's a world of difference between criticizing what someone said, and calling him names. Mykei hasn't, although his comments in this thread have been quite harsh. Look at Jeff's post to see what would have been an appopriate answer.

[Count Roland]

why certainly it would have. but I felt a certain lack of politeness for which I now apologize, I was merely irritated. though I still stand behind what I said.

[Abion47]

Mykei's last post may label him as a "negative douche", but that doesn't make his points any less valid. True, it wouldn't be impossible to mod Overgrowth into an MMOG of any genre, but it wouldn't be easy, either. I haven't looked into the Phoenix engine coding at all, but at the moment the multiplayer support sounds limited to and small combat scenarios and maybe a networked LAN coop (forgive me if I'm wrong). It would be like taking the game engine for something like SimCity 2000 and using it for a game like World of Warcraft - possible, but would require a lot of modding to make the engine do something it wasn't intended for.

Of course, my assumptions may and probably are incorrect, or Phoenix will be updated to handle an MMO mod. At the moment, though, that mod may be a bit beyond our reach.

And lay off of the poor dude. He considers Gamemaker to be an infantile method of gamedev, and in certain aspects, he is kind of right. Emphasis on certain.

He is wrong about Phoenix, though. Whether it is OpenGL or not, it is well up to par with most commercially developed engines, and surpasses many others. Truly an amazing product from a relatively small team with limited resources.

[Skofo]

but it wouldn't be easy

Can you really say that at this point?

Of course, my assumptions may and probably are incorrect, or Phoenix will be updated to handle an MMO mod. At the moment, though, that mod may be a bit beyond our reach.

At the moment, even a decently playable game is a bit of our reach.

And lay off of the poor dude. He considers Gamemaker to be an infantile method of gamedev, and in certain aspects, he is kind of right. Emphasis on certain.

Sure, it's true and non-offending when you say it like that, but this guy didn't say that "Game Maker is an infantile method of game development in certain aspects", he wrote-off my entire argument on the feasibility of scalable networking code in Overgrowth based on my past history with Game Maker, and then pretty much said that you are not a game developer unless you know C++, which is the biggest crock of shit I have ever read. Making technically impressive games that take magnitudes more time and energy to make than it has to does not make you a game developer, it just makes you a programmer. Making games makes you a game developer.

And him constantly undermining OpenGL as if it were even relevant at all to game networking is just the dung ball cherry on top of the bullshit sundae. Not to mention talking about Overgrowth's engine as if it could be easily written after a day of reading OpenGL tutorials, and treating scalable game networking code as if it were the epitome of programming. This is no "poor guy", it is just "painfully ignorant guy". Or, more precisely, "troll".