Combat controls thread

[bono bob]

i thought the first lugaru combat was beautiful and I would only play with tweaking/buildling on top of it and experimenting to see how it plays out. (context based combat for the win. Tripping people and then stabbing them for ultimate win)

The feature 'block' and 'grab' appeals to me though. To counter you have to press at the right time where blocking you can hold the whole time and also weapons blocking weapons changes things a bit too as normally if you counter and your not close enough you just auto dodge the blow but, you don't have to increase your distance if you simply block with another weapon. OF course you would still have to rely on normal counter with no weapon in hand and counter is always more fun and cooler than normal blocking so it would just be added feature that would build on top of but not ruin super awesomeness. (also there would be a factor of blocking low and non low attacks if your ducking or not.. while countering it would not matter).

Another reason you might want to block is if you want to attack instead of countering. Example: Block a swing and during their current swing animation after you already blocked it, you trip them and then stab kill them on the ground assuming they don't roll out of the way. Also you can always roll out of counters so two counter masters always having perfect timing will have an epicly long battle but having the ability to block would perhaps change the flow of battle if I decided to block your attack instead of countering it.

I'm not to sure about the grab thing, but I think it would be something you would use to overcome someone blocking.. maybe adding a grab feature would be too much and I'm not too sure how it would apply without making the game way too much like a normal fighter game so for now the idea of a separate 'grab' function I would scratch.

[Endoperez]

The idea of block and counter resulting in different timing is intriguing. If you just counter, it's easy to counter your counters. If you just block and immediately counterattack, it's easy to react to the attack. If you change between the two, you can be caught unawares... Nice!

[Chainsaw man]

The idea of block and counter resulting in different timing is intriguing. If you just counter, it's easy to counter your counters. If you just block and immediately counterattack, it's easy to react to the attack. If you change between the two, you can be caught unawares... Nice!

That reminds me of sword battle nightmare in Lugaru, but If done right I suppose it could work.
~
One thing I want to see is some real vicious brutality in Overgrowth.
How do you suppose one would go about that? Obviously we still need the ability to chuck corps about, and the ability to sit there and stab some one in overkill with a knife. I was thinking of some moves that finish with an attack of a kind result in a over kill animation for the last target, for instance:

Turner makes a standard attack, forcing the weakened foe into rag doll, Just before total falling Turner grabs his foe by the scruff of the neck and proceeds to give him a sever beating with his other hand, or maybe he grabs him by the throat and with all his grip strangles the life out of his foe.

or

A wolf finishes off some one with a throw attack, this wolf hold his enemy above him, and twists the flailing corps with a bone crunching sound, and pulls the enemy apart like it were pull apart bread, drenching the wolf and ground in a thick layer of blood, he promptly sirens a blood curdling howl.

[Endoperez]

One thing I want to see is some real vicious brutality in Overgrowth.

At least for me, "brutality you didn't expect to see" works better than blood and gore everywhere. As an example, I don't think I've seen walls used much in fights. Here are two examples (and other random stuff afterwards):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2myXZqzatbE#t=2m30s

There probably isn't a video ONLY about what kind of stuff you can do with walls, but hopefully you get the idea. Throw the other guy against a wall, hit his hand against a wall etc.

Another thing is reactions. If you hit an opponent's hand, if he looks like he hurt his hand (and it doesn't get instantly better), well... It ends up looking more brutal.

[Chainsaw man]

Finisher Move with a Sledge hammer vs head between hammer and wall?

[dra6o0n]

Controls has to be simple yet precise enough so that anyone can use it and pull off moves as they wanted to...

The counter / attack context button is not what I am looking for...

I'm looking for a sorta:

Strike/Grab Profile Button - Tapping will strike an opponent, holding will attempt a grab.

Defend/Counter Profile Button - Holding this will enable you to defend, while pressing it at the right time uses counter.

Then maybe a mobility related button:

Dodge/Sprint/crouch Profile Button - Tapping this with a direction will make you do a dodge/roll, holding + direction will result in a sprint at that direction, holding while stationary counts as a crouch?

I'm kind of basing these ideas on the Assassin's Creed 2 Low and High Profile mode, but twisting it to 3 buttons.

Now the big question, how do we fit these buttons into something that is a keyboard used by many OS?

WASD is taken for movement, so LMB works for Offense, RMB for Defense, and Shift/Ctrl for Mobility? Of course SPACE is used for jumping which is separate, and none of the commercial games released had aerial melee combat using this system... YET.

EDIT: Another big problem i came up while typing this, looks like you need some sort of auto aim to work with melee attacks so you don't attack in the wrong direction. Maybe this function activates when your close enough and automatically activates if someone is aggroing you and your not sprinting?

[Chainsaw man]

Some one has been playing batman, lol.

Um, I personally like the defense system shown to me in Zeno Clash, Block is held to stop damage to your health, a well timed block causes a counter, opening the target for counterattack, done with the attack key while he staggers. Holding Block and Pressing a Direction would allow you to lean out of the way of a strike allowing you to Counter attack, a True Combat Doge.

One thing that annoyed me about bat man was how bat man would dive roll out of combat, has anyone seen a real fight go down? How many people do you see do that? Most people who try that get restrained quickly and have there ribs kicked out of them.

As for Aerial combat, Two jump at each other, one attacks and you get the GOW2 Chainsaw effect, except allot faster,you time your Defend button and you make it free of the attack and kick the enemy away and go for the landing, or press jump and attack and you do an airborne round house kick.?

[Wilbefast]

edit: just had a thought - you can pretty much win any 1v1 fight with a endless trip + soccer + roundhouse combos, since this combo is long enough that the AI never wise up to any individual technique. But what if the AI were able to "learn" combos as well - if repeating the same sequence of moves was just as dangerous as repeating the same individual attack?



Having played Aquaria for a couple of days I would be strongly against ANYTHING that involves Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, in other words button mashing - especially the mouse. Also no martial-art worth it's salt involves holding an opponent in a position where they can struggle out through strength alone - that's pitting strength against strength, and a martial art is about mind over muscle.

[Endoperez]

Also no martial-art worth it's salt involves holding an opponent in a position where they can struggle out through strength alone - that's pitting strength against strength, and a martial art is about mind over muscle.

I disagree. There are positions where the enemy could struggle out if he were stronger, but can't, because the martial artist is stronger. Mind over muscle is good, but mind+muscle+speed over muscle is even better.

I agree about the carpal tunnel syndrome, though. I haven't owned a normal mouse in years, I used a trackball for years and recently bought a vertical mouse, but my wrists ache.

[Wilbefast]

Guess I'm all into Aikido and Tai Chi these days - "old man" martial arts. When I was younger and angrier I did Taekwondo and Karate - very different philosophy: probably a better workout though

[Endoperez]

Guess I'm all into Aikido and Tai Chi these days - "old man" martial arts. When I was younger and angrier I did Taekwondo and Karate - very different philosophy: probably a better workout though

Strength without skill and skill without strength are both weak choices. Not that I have either! I'm also for taiji and aikido, but I try to remember those alone won't make me a fighter. Especially now that 1) the taiji class for spring was cancelled and 2) I can practice aikido once per week at most.

[dra6o0n]

Aikido would work... As long as the guy doesn't point a gun at you...

[Endoperez]

Aikido would work... As long as the guy doesn't point a gun at you...

If that's meant as "Aikido can work, as long as a gun isn't pointed at you", I agree.

If that's meant as "aikido doesn't work, because a gun can be pointed at you", by that logic swimming doesn't work either because a shark could attack you. The skill doesn't help in that spesific situation but it could be helpful in a different situation. Going further with this cool analogy, you can only rely in them in an emergency if you train in your everyday clothes, and on hard ground and cold water, respectively.

[Wilbefast]

Getting back on track here...

The feature 'block' and 'grab' appeals to me though. To counter you have to press at the right time where blocking you can hold the whole time and also weapons blocking weapons changes things a bit too as normally if you counter and your not close enough you just auto dodge the blow but, you don't have to increase your distance if you simply block with another weapon.

If block = hold and counter = tap then a badly-timed counter becomes a block. So what's to stop the player from repeatedly taping block over and over again? The worst that can happen is that they block the attack rather than countering it. Attempting a counter should mean taking a risk, that's why you fake when sparring - you won't to draw the opponent into blocking something that's not there.

There's really no such thing as a static block anyway - even if you cover up, there's always going to be somewhere uncovered, and your opponent will just punch that instead of the place you're protecting. Course, if it's your face - well, not all bodyparts were made equal...

[dra6o0n]

Go play more video games... Games like Demon's Souls makes it impossible to repeatingly counter, because you will always end up leaving yourself open to attacks, AND the AI LOVES to attack you when your guard is down.

Counter in Overgrowth can be a short animation action rather than a stance or status. It might require you to pull it when your opponent is using a attack.

Tekken 6 is a fighting game but characters who uses counter usually has a weakpoint, and that is that it leaves them open, plus the counter only works when a high or mid attack is used, so a low sweeping kick will beat a counter.

So in this end, your character can pull a counter by tapping the defensive button, which causes him to go into a short stance for 1 seconds. There will be a cooldown of 0.5 seconds so basically it takes 2 seconds to use a counter over and over again. The button has a timer of 0.5 seconds so it can tell if your holding or tapping. This then totals to a 2 second use for defense.

In the end, we need a stamina gauge, since you don't want players to be able to block a wide variety of combos on you over and over and over and over again. We want fighters to be able to tire out from attacking, so it makes tactical moves more valuable.

We might need certain types of attacks, along with melee weapons, in attack type categories:

Melee, Slash, Pierce, and Blunt.
Then having it so different attack uses different amounts of stamina, so to maintain a combo, fast melee weapons are a must, but for heavy hitters, large blunts are used.

It's one thing having a defense system so you can block attacks by holding, but there need to be guard breakers and grabs:

Melee Secondary = Grab (Guard Break)
1 Handed Secondary = Shove (Guard Break)
2 Handed Secondary = Smash (Guard Break)

Shoving is a useful technique because it just means you pushed them over when they are guarding, and very useful for environmental combat.

For 2 handed weapons, it should be possible to use a charged up Smash attack to break through the guard, and when the defender lacks any possible equipment to block it, they need to dodge it.