Stealth

[Endoperez]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlOXAtPvMDk

Bjartr posted this video as a reply to this blog post:
http://blog.wolfire.com/2009/05/non-let ... qus_thread

It explains different between "problems" and "choices" in game design. One is apple vs orange; either is good. Other is bazooka vs orage, in which one choice is always better. Splinter Cell 3's developers made mixed the two up.

[invertin]

Stealth V combat?

That's a ridiculous question.

The only answer is both.

Why can't we combine the two? Lugaru actually did that. Sneaking around, then jumping out, killing one enemy in an epic 1 on 1 battle, then launching his body away and sneaking away so no-one notices.

There was one Temple Campaign level that I'm reminded of. I can't remember which one it was. I think it was the first time the main character wears that ninja suit. Maybe the second time. Actually I think it was the third time. Damnit it was the one inside the raider base with the custscene just outside for the previous level.

I'm also reminded of Crysis. I tried beating the demo with fists only and stealth was necessary to survive. I ended up loading a car full of explosives, then punching them and running away. But that has nothing to do with the stealth/combat combo.

[Wilbefast]

BOLDIFY! NOW!

Arm Sword does make a good point - you go to all the trouble of making the character expressive and believable (listen to them talking for long enough and killing them becomes very difficult for any non-psycopath) and then you reduce their life or death to a score. Chaos Theory was the best in the series in my opinion, but you're right about it punishing you for using any of the cool new stuff

Provided the level lets you choose how you approach a fight (strategy) as well as how you handle the fight itself (tactics) then stealth will likely always be an option, and since the engine is designed to handle huge, open levels I think it's safe to assume that stealth will always be a possibility (except when it comes to psychic wolves). As for darkness - well, this could add an interesting dimension since cats can see very well in the dark and wolves don't need light to smell you (those damn psychic wolves!)...

Feeling a bit of déja vu here - I seem to remember having done a rather awesome graph about this whole stealth issue. Wait, Jo-Shadow mentioned it already - I'd like to point out what a fantastic person Jo-Shadow is and what an asset he has been to this community of late - why, he's practically member of the dev team. The "practically" is because he's not getting paid

Actually when last I looked neither were they (unless you count the anti-starvation fund) - people who make games are crazy...

[Swordarm]

So I am crazy too? (yeah, I make).

the name is Swordarm

[Wilbefast]

So I am crazy too? (yeah, I make).

As am I Armsword, as am I...

[Swordarm]

already guessed that.
But I need to correct your statement, you know who is actually more crazy than a person who works for a game company?
A dedicated modder.

I actually have not yet thought about the shadow dynamics in this game, good points with the Cats. Wolfire team, pick this up. It's a great idea and those things are the important differences between enemies.

Hear well: Cats, Rabbits.
See in darkness: Cats, Rats.
Smell very well: Wolves (actually cats too but that might be a balancing problem?)
Last but not least, vunerable to stealth: Dogs (dogs are stupid anyway. Cats forever. Yeah, I have a cat ).

Something, anything like this. It not only makes the enemies more distinct from each other but also changes the MET (most effective tactic) the player can or cannot choose / discover.
Then factor in a great AI, different weapons and enviroments as well as some differences in combat (AI and stats) and you have a near endless combat scenario list. TADA!

However, you should thumb down the psychic wolves factor by adding a possibility to counter the smell advantage. In Lugaru, you could get closer to a wolf when approaching against the wind (brilliant idea) but still not close enough.
The only way to stealth kill a wolf was getting lucky during the combat regarding positions.

[Endoperez]

Random pondering.

Animals don't fight to the death if they don't have to. When a dog or a wolf doesn't want to fight, it goes to the ground or even may roll on its back, showing its vulnerable throat and stomach. Why do that in a fight? Because it shows you it knows who's the boss. They don't fight to kill, but to see who leads. The old leader won't be killed, either, but at most send away and not always even that. Any way, there's a fight, no one dies, but a new king is here. He's is the Alpha Wolf. He's the leader of the dogpack, or the rat "king".

What happens if you beat him, and don't kill him, and you're the new chief? He's submitted to you. If he attacks you, he's telling everyone that "you ever beat me, you better kill me, because I can't be trusted". If his underlings attack, will it be the same way?

This doesn't matter one bit if you first go through the cronies, then the pack, then the alpha, like you did in the end of Lugaru. However, (and this is why I post this in a stealth thread), what happens if his underlings are still alive? What if you went by the wolfguards, what if you bypassed the wolfcub pack, went straight to the Alpha Wolf, and then defeated him before the others got to his help - and did this all without the sword, without killing. You're big and bad, but not a wolf, so the wolves would normally just attack you - but the Alpha can't allow that. You beat him, underling beats you, the alpha is at the bottom - Not Good. He won't like you, and he might come after you, later, but for now he's going to do what you say - and his pack follow. And perhaps you say he's going to take his pack for a tour of the other islands, and that he'd better not be back, at least not while you're still around, because you can beat him, and you can kill him, if he forces you to.

I rather like the idea.

Also, cats. Loners, and looking at real world, dogs beat cats. Why would dogs, plural, do what a cat, singular, says? Well, what if the cats don't play by the rules. Pick a fight with a cat, and you might get him down, you might get beat him, but a cat is a proud thing and won't submit. If it runs, is it an ambush? If it wins, if you aren't dead you'll most probably have "something" to remember it by. You might think you're winning until you feel a hindleg inside your stomach (everyone who's ever scratched a cat's tummy knows what I'm talking about). And what, then, if you do win? What's a dog to do? Let him live, knowing he'll be back, today or tomorrow, or on a dark night a year from now. But they're also fickle, and might already have forgotten you, so you'd better just keep low profile and hope for the best. So you'd have to be stupid to pick a fight with a cat, but killing a cat is even worse. A dog like that, he's called a mad one, and will soon be a lonely one. Someone might decide to put him down. A cat might decide it's time to make an example. A cat might decide to go hunt something a bit more challenging... someone with a reputation.

What if several of these guys team up? A cat can't win against a whole pack, right? Well, now they're rebels. Better send soldiers after them, that's what soldiers do. It's a dog (b)eat dog world...

[Wilbefast]

already guessed that.
But I need to correct your statement, you know who is actually more crazy than a person who works for a game company?
A dedicated modder.

I actually have not yet thought about the shadow dynamics in this game, good points with the Cats. Wolfire team, pick this up. It's a great idea and those things are the important differences between enemies.

Yes, I am indeed a maker of good points - thank you for pointing that out. Here, have this special edition custom made avatar I made just for you!

Hear well: Cats, Rabbits.
See in darkness: Cats, Rats.
Smell very well: Wolves (actually cats too but that might be a balancing problem?)
Last but not least, vunerable to stealth: Dogs (dogs are stupid anyway. Cats forever. Yeah, I have a cat ).

Something, anything like this. It not only makes the enemies more distinct from each other but also changes the MET (most effective tactic) the player can or cannot choose / discover.
Then factor in a great AI, different weapons and enviroments as well as some differences in combat (AI and stats) and you have a near endless combat scenario list. TADA!

However, you should thumb down the psychic wolves factor by adding a possibility to counter the smell advantage. In Lugaru, you could get closer to a wolf when approaching against the wind (brilliant idea) but still not close enough.
The only way to stealth kill a wolf was getting lucky during the combat regarding positions.

Yeah - the annoying thing is that you're smelt if you get too close even if you go to the trouble of cleaning your weapons and figuring out the wind direction: it would be nice if doing these things paid off a bit more. Even though it doesn't I still check wind directions and clean weapons in Lugaru, because I think it's a mad feature!
By the way - cats have a much less good sense of smell than any of the other creatures - they hunt by sight mostly. Many breeds of dogs are bred for their sense of smell, so they should probably be included with wolves in the "smell-y" category - in general you can tell what sense an animal favours by how big its ears/nose/eyes are (works in most cases).

Random pondering.

Animals don't fight to the death if they don't have to. When a dog or a wolf doesn't want to fight, it goes to the ground or even may roll on its back, showing its vulnerable throat and stomach. Why do that in a fight? Because it shows you it knows who's the boss. They don't fight to kill, but to see who leads. The old leader won't be killed, either, but at most send away and not always even that. Any way, there's a fight, no one dies, but a new king is here. He's is the Alpha Wolf. He's the leader of the dogpack, or the rat "king".

What happens if you beat him, and don't kill him, and you're the new chief? He's submitted to you. If he attacks you, he's telling everyone that "you ever beat me, you better kill me, because I can't be trusted". If his underlings attack, will it be the same way?

This doesn't matter one bit if you first go through the cronies, then the pack, then the alpha, like you did in the end of Lugaru. However, (and this is why I post this in a stealth thread), what happens if his underlings are still alive? What if you went by the wolfguards, what if you bypassed the wolfcub pack, went straight to the Alpha Wolf, and then defeated him before the others got to his help - and did this all without the sword, without killing. You're big and bad, but not a wolf, so the wolves would normally just attack you - but the Alpha can't allow that. You beat him, underling beats you, the alpha is at the bottom - Not Good. He won't like you, and he might come after you, later, but for now he's going to do what you say - and his pack follow. And perhaps you say he's going to take his pack for a tour of the other islands, and that he'd better not be back, at least not while you're still around, because you can beat him, and you can kill him, if he forces you to.

I rather like the idea.

Also, cats. Loners, and looking at real world, dogs beat cats. Why would dogs, plural, do what a cat, singular, says? Well, what if the cats don't play by the rules. Pick a fight with a cat, and you might get him down, you might get beat him, but a cat is a proud thing and won't submit. If it runs, is it an ambush? If it wins, if you aren't dead you'll most probably have "something" to remember it by. You might think you're winning until you feel a hindleg inside your stomach (everyone who's ever scratched a cat's tummy knows what I'm talking about). And what, then, if you do win? What's a dog to do? Let him live, knowing he'll be back, today or tomorrow, or on a dark night a year from now. But they're also fickle, and might already have forgotten you, so you'd better just keep low profile and hope for the best. So you'd have to be stupid to pick a fight with a cat, but killing a cat is even worse. A dog like that, he's called a mad one, and will soon be a lonely one. Someone might decide to put him down. A cat might decide it's time to make an example. A cat might decide to go hunt something a bit more challenging... someone with a reputation.

What if several of these guys team up? A cat can't win against a whole pack, right? Well, now they're rebels. Better send soldiers after them, that's what soldiers do. It's a dog (b)eat dog world...

Good underlining - here, have this limited edition picture of an angry rabbit:



Some cool ideas there - in terms of random pondering, what about rabies? It could add a whole new dimension to the blood on your sword is that blood was infected with some horrific illness, and it's always interesting to shake the player up a little - say they're used to rats being hesitant and then one just charges at them, all the while frothing at the mouth...

That's idle musing for you.

[Xerxes713]

Responding to Endoperez's ramblings about underlings:

Following the rules of the animal kingdom, the wolves follow their Alpha because he's the biggest and the baddest of them all. If a single rabbit took him down unarmed, they would ostracize the (former) leader and follow the rabbit. The rabbit would at some point, of course, be challenged for dominance, but if he took down the Alpha Wolf then a measly Beta would be child's play.

[Endoperez]

Responding to Endoperez's ramblings about underlings:

Following the rules of the animal kingdom, the wolves follow their Alpha because he's the biggest and the baddest of them all. If a single rabbit took him down unarmed, they would ostracize the (former) leader and follow the rabbit. The rabbit would at some point, of course, be challenged for dominance, but if he took down the Alpha Wolf then a measly Beta would be child's play.

If wolves kill a deer, and a bear comes by and wants to eat it, the wolves will go away, not start following the bear.

There's more to leadership than being best at fighting.

[Wilbefast]

If wolves kill a deer, and a bear comes by and wants to eat it, the wolves will go away, not start following the bear.

There's more to leadership than being best at fighting.

The funny thing is that wolf packs rarely have conflicts over leadership - generally members of the pack leave once they're a couple of years old in order to form new packs: the pack is thus formed of the alpha couple, pups and young members of the family, and a new pack is formed when too wandering wolves meet up - fights only really happen when there's nowhere to go: say in captivity.

[Swordarm]

if you make a smaller version of that avatar, (I hate compressing stuff) I will use it
Despite you editing every quoting of me to have it say "Armsword"

Once again, the discussion goes back to the "animal kingdom area". What many here don't seem to realize is that the characters may resemble animals and inherit some traits but are not.

Those are advanced soceities (spelled correctly, I hate this word), capable of architecture, forging, farming, ... and a complex social life and structure.
Lugaru introduced us the The King. Rabbits or hares, whatever HAVE NO KING
Okay, we know Watership Down and the pack structure so we could just compare the alpha rabbit with the king. But the basic problem remains.
These are NOT ANIMALS. Actually, like every character in every narrative every written by a human, they are human. They have human traits, act like humans could act, share human feelings simply because a story written by man for man can only be about man otherwise nobody would say it's a story.

[Wilbefast]

You want me to remake it in smaller?



Or just shrink it?



This, children, is how most sprites are made

[Swordarm]

I wanted a remade one to fit the size of the avatar field. I am far to open Paint or Gimp or whatever myself

[Noz]

If something can be just as easily accomplished by just barging through as by stealth, then it's useless.

Disagree.

In my humble opinion, stealth for its own sake can be fun.

very true, i think that some might prefer both methods and that leaning toward one would be a very bad mistake.