Tutorial system

[Zhukov]

"meaningful" and "skippable" are mutually exclusive.

What's with the defeatist attitude? Sure, the balance is hard to achieve, but it's possible: I think Starcraft did this best with their prologue tutorial...

You consider Starcraft to contain an example of a good tutorial? Well, then perhaps we do not disagree as much as I first thought. I would most certainly consider the SC tutorial to be "skippable" rather then "meaningful". It contained no story or setting information, therefore the player lost nothing of significance by skipping it. However, as you correctly point out, it was solidly grounded in the game's overall setting.

I was under the impression that by "meaningful" you meant something like "integral".

Lugaru's tutorial felt like a chore, don't deny it: I want to play the goddamn game, not sit through some inexplicable lecture emanating from a disembodied voice!

Ah... here is where we differ. I was not in the least bit dissatisfied with the presentation of Lugaru's tutorial. It's purpose was to instruct the player in the basic mechanics of the game. It fulfilled that purpose to a sufficient degree. Without that knowledge, "playing the goddamn game" would have been an exercise in frustration.

I am quite content to endure a few minutes of necessary tedium. If anything, it only whets my appetite for the main course.

The sad truth is that Digital Natives have no attention span - they want instant gratification and they're not going to bother learning how to play your game unless the very act of learning is fun in itself, right off the bat.

Yes... you're probably right. Unfortunately, watching one cater to the lowest common dominator leaves me with a certain unpleasant aftertaste.

Why do I think we discussed all of this already? Oh, because we have, never mind.

Huh. That would explain the deja vu.

Incidentally, I still advocate what I said in that thread.

[GaGrin]

This is an extrodinarily simple choice for me.
Separate lessons like Rainbow 6 or Lugaru are VASTLY preferable to me, because there is nothing worse IMO than having to re-do a tutorial after reinstalling or restarting a game.

Dressing up tutorials with story makes them take longer - and is contrary to the point of teaching the basic mechanics.

If you're afraid of players missing the tutorials and getting confused, put a choice like:

"You are about to start a new game for the first time, would you like to play a brief tutorial first? We highly recommend this for those not already familiar with the game."
[Yes, take me to the Tutorial/No, I can manage on my own]

I'd rather have a 5 minute, fast and dirty control demonstration than 10 or 15 minutes trying to blend story, backstory and controls together. Outside of this, the game's difficulty curve should take care of the rest.

[tokage]

Why do I think we discussed all of this already? Oh, because we have, never mind.

Huh. That would explain the deja vu.

Incidentally, I still advocate what I said in that thread.

That's why I brought it up. And don't get me wrong the discussion in there is far from over or come to any conclusions. BTW the same as for Zhukov holds for me. I don't really mind a separate tutorial and I absolutely will vote for full movement capabilities from the start opposed to getting moves unlocked slowly throughout the game(all this in regard to my post linked above, weapons are the key).

No one's going to like you if you going around doing stuff like that.

Luckily I am not dependent on being liked by people over the internet .

[Renegade_Turner]

Yeah, I also enjoy people disliking me on the internet. Everyone knows the internet isn't real.

[Glabbit]

Yeah, I also enjoy people disliking me on the internet. Everyone knows the internet isn't real.

Virtual does not equals not real.

[Renegade_Turner]

Here's a gold star.

[Untadaike]

Well, that was entertaining.

[Glabbit]

Here's a gold star.

*jumps with joy*
Can I get me an ice cream with this?

[kehaar]

Here's a gold star.

*jumps with joy*
Can I get me an ice cream with this?

Er, ice cream, yes.

Yes you can.





Another vote for a separate tutorial, Lugaru style. I haven't seen very many of the integrated ones mentioned here, but the ones I have seen feel forced, and too long for something that's telling you how to use controls.

I just showed Lugaru to someone who's played a LOT of games, and he said the tutorial was fun, and that the practice itself totally hooked him on the game. I guess this more of a thumbs up for the Lugaru fighting controls than anything, but he specifically mentioned that it was nice to fight the vapor rabbit since it wasn't a real character.

Only thing about the Lugaru method I'd change is to make the sapce itself a little more interesting.


( saying teh internetz is real is laughable. That's like saying it's us who control the cars that drive us around the city. Impossible)

[Untadaike]

Yeah, the tutorial's great. The first time I played, I didn't recall all the moves I learned from the tut so I went back and played it again and it wasn't a pain at all.

[Wilbefast]

Why do I think we discussed all of this already?
Oh, because we have, never mind.

Oops - my bad, seems I missed that thread somehow and didn't do a search before posting. Clearly I should be taken out back and shot in the face.

I would most certainly consider the SC tutorial to be "skippable" rather then "meaningful". It contained no story or setting information, therefore the player lost nothing of significance by skipping it. However, as you correctly point out, it was solidly grounded in the game's overall setting.
I was under the impression that by "meaningful" you meant something like "integral".

When I said "meaningful" I meant that it makes sense within the bounds of the game universe.

I absolutely will vote for full movement capabilities from the start opposed to getting moves unlocked slowly throughout the game.

Agree.

I'd rather have a 5 minute, fast and dirty control demonstration than 10 or 15 minutes trying to blend story, backstory and controls together. Outside of this, the game's difficulty curve should take care of the rest.

A most eloquently conveyed point o' aromatic pirate! I'll yield to that - guess the ideal for me would be a 7 minute tutorial that fits into the game universe somehow...

Watching one cater to the lowest common dominator leaves me with a certain unpleasant aftertaste.

Many of the people I've shown Lugaru have been turned off by the tutorial: anyone who's here is here because they're super keen about this game, and probably won't need a tutorial, but the majority of the market is made up of people with attention spans so short that they get bored of things before trying them.
I maintain however that you can make something interesting and accessible without dumbing it down, something most developers seem to have forgotten. Speaking of which, I'd like to spend Chris Taylor a very personal "***k you" with regards to Supreme Commander 2.

Because in gaming the obvious solution is never the best.

[Untadaike]

I like how defensive and stubborn everyone is on these forums. I really do.

[invertin]

Oh this is nothing.

As for tutorials- How about something related to the main story, but not neccesary? E.G Playing as some random other character being attacked by badguy X or something.

I like seperated tutorials, I think they're alot simpler, but at the same time I don't like an unjustified tutorial.

[Glabbit]

Most often I have the idea these guys don't listen to their own words anymore...

[Zhukov]

When I said "meaningful" I meant that it makes sense within the bounds of the game universe.

Ah, well... in that case I fully agree.

Most often I have the idea these guys don't listen to their own words anymore...

I like how defensive and stubborn everyone is on these forums. I really do.

What on earth are you guys on about? So far as I can tell, this has been an amicable and civilized exchange of opinions.