New moves secretly introduced?

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brigadesoft
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New moves secretly introduced?

Post by brigadesoft » Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:44 am

Since 141 I've noticed something strange. Anyone who studies a martial art - from Tae Kwon Do to WMA Longsword techniques - knows that "attacking in the after" is a fast way to get your ass kicked. You generally want to attack "in the before" or "in the simultaneous," either avoiding or parrying your opponents strike and simultaneously launching your own. This is much more effective than the "block, attack, block, attack" timing one tends to see in video games.

Well, after downloading 141 and testing things quite a bit, I've witnessed on several occasions what appears to be rabbit guards attacking simultaneously as they block one of your attacks. I had high hopes for this eventually being added to the game, but it's happened rather infrequently, and individual moments of combat in this game are fleeting at best.

I approached Jeff about this, and got the inadequate response: "hehe" Nothing more. :P

Can anyone else confirm that this is happening?

Roujin
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Re: New moves secretly introduced?

Post by Roujin » Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:15 pm

brigadesoft wrote: "attacking in the after" is a fast way to get your ass kicked.
You might want to rephrase that :lol:

Sorry, nothing substantial from me to contribute to the topic, as I haven't tried the latest alpha.

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adwuga
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Re: New moves secretly introduced?

Post by adwuga » Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:20 am

sounds like some michevy (hehe i made up a word) from the devs again. I get similar responses to a lot of my questions, though i cant remember what I asked. its probably some half done awesomeness they sneaked into the game to see if anyone would notice. or maybe IT'S A TRAP! sorry, same situation as Roujin

Tonjevic
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Re: New moves secretly introduced?

Post by Tonjevic » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:14 am

Sounds like an emergent phenomenon to me, though the David is pretty hardcore into muay thai, so I wouldn't put it past him to have implemented something like this.

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Jacktheawesome
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Re: New moves secretly introduced?

Post by Jacktheawesome » Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:51 pm

Well according to Twitter this is a real thing.

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Diablodoc
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Re: New moves secretly introduced?

Post by Diablodoc » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:58 am

Jacktheawesome wrote:Well according to Twitter this is a real thing.
Link please?

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Jacktheawesome
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Re: New moves secretly introduced?

Post by Jacktheawesome » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:05 pm


Taylor
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Re: New moves secretly introduced?

Post by Taylor » Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:39 pm

that's just a link to the newest alpha...

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Korban3
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Re: New moves secretly introduced?

Post by Korban3 » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:04 pm

Image
Endoface

There's a reason for that.

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Jacktheawesome
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Re: New moves secretly introduced?

Post by Jacktheawesome » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:55 pm

C-C-C-CROSS-THREAD COMBO!!!

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GaGrin
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Re: New moves secretly introduced?

Post by GaGrin » Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:28 pm

You can counter-attack to beat an attack yourself if you know the timings on the attacks, it just gets impractical since you've got to be able to predict the attack the AI performs and if they do a standing middle kick you can't beat it in speed or reach unless you managed to close distance within the time gap and get a punch instead... which is more luck than judgement with the speed the fighting happens at.

What I'm curious about (and am about to go test) is if LMB timing makes any difference at all. Holding will continue the combo, but does precise timing actually help? I know that you don't get passive defence if you're attacking - and the new hit-reaction blocks mean that the passive guard actually provides a little protection.

What I really like about the design so far is that it's nuanced enough to require some real thinking and reflexes, and there doesn't appear to be any single technique (aside from the JUMP KICK which is just overkill and uncounterable at the moment) which dominates. If we have access to anything like longsword master strikes then we might end up with something a little too close to the invincibility of something like Batman or Assassin's Creed - despite those techniques being realistic, they are almost impossible to implement in a balanced fashion in game with a context based system, due to the timing being much easier to learn than adjusting the geometry to your opponent's attack while hitting them at the same time.

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Jacktheawesome
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Re: New moves secretly introduced?

Post by Jacktheawesome » Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:35 pm

GaGrin wrote:You can counter-attack to beat an attack yourself if you know the timings on the attacks, it just gets impractical since you've got to be able to predict the attack the AI performs and if they do a standing middle kick you can't beat it in speed or reach unless you managed to close distance within the time gap and get a punch instead... which is more luck than judgement with the speed the fighting happens at.

What I'm curious about (and am about to go test) is if LMB timing makes any difference at all. Holding will continue the combo, but does precise timing actually help? I know that you don't get passive defence if you're attacking - and the new hit-reaction blocks mean that the passive guard actually provides a little protection.

What I really like about the design so far is that it's nuanced enough to require some real thinking and reflexes, and there doesn't appear to be any single technique (aside from the JUMP KICK which is just overkill and uncounterable at the moment) which dominates. If we have access to anything like longsword master strikes then we might end up with something a little too close to the invincibility of something like Batman or Assassin's Creed - despite those techniques being realistic, they are almost impossible to implement in a balanced fashion in game with a context based system, due to the timing being much easier to learn than adjusting the geometry to your opponent's attack while hitting them at the same time.
What is this I don't even...

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Endoperez
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Re: New moves secretly introduced?

Post by Endoperez » Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:41 am

[quote="GaGrin"What I really like about the design so far is that it's nuanced enough to require some real thinking and reflexes, and there doesn't appear to be any single technique (aside from the JUMP KICK which is just overkill and uncounterable at the moment) which dominates. If we have access to anything like longsword master strikes then we might end up with something a little too close to the invincibility of something like Batman or Assassin's Creed - despite those techniques being realistic, they are almost impossible to implement in a balanced fashion in game with a context based system, due to the timing being much easier to learn than adjusting the geometry to your opponent's attack while hitting them at the same time.[/quote]

The master strikes aren't unavoidable or unblockable, though. There are counters for everything, as my favourite longsword video demonstrates. I think David or someone mentioned they might want to avoid excessively long counter-counter-counter chains in Overgrowth, but if there's a counterattack obviously it has to be possible to avoid it some way. So it's likely that if we have counters, then the original attacker can evade or nullify the counterattack some way.

Obviously the fastest, most immediate, least telegraphed counters would be difficult to implement, but at least some of the master strikes should be possible to animate in a way that is clear to the player while still being recognizable. If there are any weapons that can use longsword attacks at all, that is. If not, I guess I'll have to try my hand at making some custom animations myself. :lol:

Also, the last Alpha mentioned that feints might eventually have an actual use. Countering a feint will, obviously, open yourself for an attack from the other guy.

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GaGrin
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Re: New moves secretly introduced?

Post by GaGrin » Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:24 pm

Yes, that really is a nice video.

However, since I've been doing this for nearly a year I can say two things: Firstly, many of those techniques aren't master-strikes, but simply normal cuts used defensively to show good technique. And secondly, when they DO use master strikes the counter to a master strike must occur DURING the original attacker's attack - they have to change what they are doing to avoid getting hit.

In reality, master strikes fail because commitment to an action isn't ever complete, you can always pull back to some degree if you still have control of your body and thus adjust your attack to set aside the incoming counter-strike. This is a near instantaneous action and often predicted by both parties before it happens (in which case you end up with ever more complicated feints and counter chains like the vid - or more likely, one of you makes a mistake -distance, timing or placement- and gets hit).

OG is a context based system, so there isn't any analogy for skill with the offensive or defensive element. We don't check to see how well we've placed our punches or blocks, we know the character will always do it to the absolute best of their ability all of the time. Distance is also included in the context of the action, so while under our control, the response is automatic. This leaves timing.

Timing is arguably the most important element of these moves, but it is also the easiest to learn - and if a master strike is successfully placed it is an unavoidable simultaneous strike.

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Endoperez
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Re: New moves secretly introduced?

Post by Endoperez » Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:02 pm

There's only one control for the player: timing. However, that can be used to control anything else in ways that wouldn't be possible in real life. For example, it might retroactively allow the character to act as if it hadn't committed to an action.

It's not realistic, obviously, but it could work mechanically.

I have to admit I'm not 100% certain what the master strikes are, BTW. I thought it was five strikes called master strokes in a manual or several, but didn't know anything else about them. I know some of them by name, and from your post I know they're ways to attack the opponent as he attacks you. I don't think all attacks like that are master strikes, because I'm sure that list would be quite long since it's all situational.

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