Overgrowth MMO

[shyisc]

I'd like to see an Overgrowth MMO. I think this can be done without having to add too many new game assets or compromising what makes Overgrowth Overgrowth.

The main idea is to create what might be considered a simulation of personal relationships, economy, and politics in order to create a dynamic environment in which interesting situation arise spontaneously from the interactions between individuals and groups of NPC. I'll put my braindump of how I think this can be accomplished later, but the important points are that it's doable, and that it would create an endless stream of scenarios and campaigns for the players to play through, with various types of jobs: bounty hunter, police man, soldier, bodyguard, rebel, assassin, rescuer, runaway slave, and more.

With a dynamic game world, everything would constantly be changing, so even if the missions or jobs should be identical, there will always be differences. The place will be have changed since last time, or it would be a different place altogether. There characters would have changed since last time, or the cast of characters would be different. Different parties would be involved. Different politics.

EDIT: Of course, I mean I would like to see an Overgrowth MMO as your next project after Overgrowth. The advantage of my idea is that it should work equally well both for multi-player and single-player.

[Garabaldi]

Overgrowth is not an MMO and is not designed as an MMO, so I'm not so inclined to accept your claim that it can easily translate - dedicated network play isn't even implemented yet, and it's not known yet how many players can be supported simultaneously, but I an guarantee you it isn't going to be a 'massive' amount - that type of support would be even lower on the pirority list than PVP, which coop implementation already takes precedent over.. which still requires a basic framework for network play.

And if Overgrowth isn't massive in terms of the maximum number of players it can potentially support at any given time, it also isn't massive in terms of map and level size - so would everything be instanced? If it lacks 'massiveness' in both scale and the number of players, is it really an MMO?

The closest I can see this coming to being implemented, is through some type of RPG multiplayer game-mode, where you have a persistent character and can perhaps level up your stats, find new gear, fight groups of enemies, and duel people in an area - sort of like what the City Life mod does for Arma 2, or cRPG for Mount & Blade, but that would probably, at max, support 24-32 players if that.. I'm more pessimistic and think 12 would be a reasonable number- certainly not a count in the hundreds or thousands.. can you imagine all of those ragdolls and physics calculations that the sever would have to keep track of, and the compensation that would be required to make sure all players have a comparable ping and are seeing, in general, the same thing at roughly the same point in time and space?

It's a neat idea, but if something like what you're suggesting ever happens, it certainly won't be massive in any sense of the word.

[shyisc]

Overgrowth is not an MMO and is not designed as an MMO, so I'm not so inclined to accept your claim that it can easily translate - dedicated network play isn't even implemented yet, and it's not known yet how many players can be supported simultaneously, but I an guarantee you it isn't going to be a 'massive' amount - that type of support would be even lower on the pirority list than PVP, which coop implementation already takes precedent over.. which still requires a basic framework for network play.

And if Overgrowth isn't massive in terms of the maximum number of players it can potentially support at any given time, it also isn't massive in terms of map and level size - so would everything be instanced? If it lacks 'massiveness' in both scale and the number of players, is it really an MMO?

The closest I can see this coming to being implemented, is through some type of RPG multiplayer game-mode, where you have a persistent character and can perhaps level up your stats, find new gear, fight groups of enemies, and duel people in an area - sort of like what the City Life mod does for Arma 2, or cRPG for Mount & Blade, but that would probably, at max, support 24-32 players if that.. I'm more pessimistic and think 12 would be a reasonable number- certainly not a count in the hundreds or thousands.. can you imagine all of those ragdolls and physics calculations that the sever would have to keep track of, and the compensation that would be required to make sure all players have a comparable ping and are seeing, in general, the same thing at roughly the same point in time and space?

It's a neat idea, but if something like what you're suggesting ever happens, it certainly won't be massive in any sense of the word.

I don't mean they should turn Overgrowth into and MMO right now, but that I would like it to be the next project after Overgrowth. If they do chose to make it I expect them to start working on it only after Overgrowth is released.

Also, I don't want an RPG game. The RPG-type elements should only exist in order to support a dynamic economy run by NPC. The main point is to create an environment that generates scenarios for Ninja Furries to play through, not yet another lame boring RPG. In a way, this kind of project sounds like it fits Introversion more than Wolfire.

[Master XOY99]

So long as you can do it offline im fine by that, I hate MMO's. And also the economy feature like you described reminds me of TES V: Skyrim well... what they were going to attempt

[shyisc]

First some thoughts about the MMORPG genre, followed by stuff that I thought specifically regarding what my ideal Overgrowth MMO would look like.

Please note that this is somewhat of a braindump.

I was playing some MMORPG and thinking about how dull and boring the whole genre is, and how to make it more interesting. I was thinking that if mobs didn't automatically re-spawn and if they formed packs and fought together then killing them would be more interesting. They could have kids that grow up and grow stronger over time, they could have preferred habitats, leading them to migrate to places that are more comfortable. They could have physical needs for food and water. They could have territory, which they would fight to claim and defend from other characters, including both mobs and players. They could even claim cities as their territory. If they had a few stronghold with super-strong bosses producing offspring, they would never be entirely exterminated. If they broke off to form new packs and claim new territory when their pack reached a certain size, then they'd be constantly invading, and creating both need and opportunity to perform mob exterminations. NPC could also have feelings towards each other, causing them to either bond together in friendship or marriage or hunt each other down obsessively.

Human NPC can have needs for food, water, clothing, shelter, and education. They would have professions they would work at to provide those needs for themselves and their families. If they can't make a living, they could take on another job, switch jobs, or move their business or even residence to a new location, or lower prices. If they can't find a job, they may change the job or level of compensation they are looking for.

If learning a new skill requires a lot of studying before it can be practiced then there would be need of teachers. Different skills may require different knowledge, creating a "tech tree" for education. If each type of work requires different tools, then there is need for tool makers, and each craftsman may have different levels of skill at making different tools, effecting the selection of tools they make, they chances of successfully completing them, the amount of time they take, and the quality of the final product.

If health restores only very slowly then there is need of remedies and hospitals.

If there is a morale stat that affects performance, then there is need of entertainment to keep it up. This means restaurants, theaters, and libraries, as well as playing or watching games.

Quests
If NPC can be killed, and cities or other settlements captured, then the available quests and their contents should also change according to history. Under the current standards for MMORPG this would be difficult and require human intervention rather than being auto-generated, although auto-generation should be possible.

It's more realistic for quests with unique stories to only be played once in the entire game. There can be plenty of repetitive quests who are repetitive because the conditions that prompt them are repetitive, but they still may not be immediately repeatable. Examples:
• A merchant wants to travel to another town and needs a bodyguard.
• Lately, the population of mobs near a village has grown too large. Drive them out or kill them off, one or the other.
• Rescue a child who's been kidnapped for ransom.
All quests are in a sense repeatable, since the same situations will inevitably arise in different places at different times, and with variations in circumstances. Some may simply repeat more often than others. It is important that the quest be different each time it is repeated, but those differences should be randomly selected.

Less repeatable quests might borrow elements from the adventure genre, but can still be smoothly implemented in an RPG, since although the basic natures adventure and RPG are different, they are similar in many ways, allowing the entire adventure genre to be implemented within the RPG genre, although the opposite may not be true. Adventure-style quests with complex stories and dialog can certainly help spice things up. Since they would be difficult and time-consuming to create, and might not be something that can be auto-generated, they should probably be made available as a benefit to the most successful players, requiring extraordinary reputations.

It should be not only possible but even likely for players to fail quests. If quests are something that can be completed easily then the experience is less rewarding, and it will also be harder to tell apart good players from the bad. Some adventure-type quests can probably be auto-generated and used to screen players for the more interesting hand-crafted quests. Of course, even adventure-style quests can have battles, but battles aren't the most interesting thing about a quest - the story is.

Fighting should require player-skill. If a player can beat a weaker enemy while letting his character fight on auto-pilot, and defeating an equal or stronger enemy as long as he pays attention, then fighting isn't interesting. An interesting fight requires either that the player either use use his skills as a fighter or strategist. The ability to fight and defeat multiple superior enemies simultaneously through superior player skill or superior strategy can make combat much more interesting.

Today I've had an interesting, perhaps even exciting idea. I think it should be possible to create much more life-like NPC that actually behave like people. It should be possible to create a system of stats that represent a character's personality and feelings, his relationships towards other people, organizations, places, objects, actions, thoughts, beliefs, situations, other relationships, etc. It should also be possible to create an inventory system for information that a character knows, which he can then share or record. Using this, it should be possible to dynamically generate conversations, depending on the topics of interest for the participants, their level of assertiveness, the degree to which they like to share information, how much they think it would interest the others, associations between pieces of information, how confidential they consider it to be, how trustworthy they think the listeners are, and whole slew of other factors.

How much people like each other can depend on how much they help each other, how much they enjoy each other's company, how much they hold each other in esteem for their profession, political or economic condition, level of education, connections, and other factors.

New information can be discovered by simply hearing or seeing it. "I saw mark and Irene talking in the market", "I heard 2 soldiers on guard duty at the mayor's mansion say that the city will be attacked", "I heard footsteps in the alley last night". All of these pieces of information can be generated and stored by the game, and can either fade to nothingness (and get deleted) or be remembered based on how often a character thinks or speaks about it or how strongly he feels about it.

Characters can be made to act on what they know. If someone knows the city will be attacked, then based on his situation and personality he may choose to warn others, leave, join the city guards, hide his valuables, do nothing, etc. If a guy who loves Irene hears she is spending time with another guy, he may choose to confront him or her, or try harder to win her heart, give up his romantic aspirations, commit murder, etc. If your neighbor was robbed, then those footsteps you heard can be used in the investigation to identify the time of the robbery. There is a lot an AI that is specifically written for a game can do with info generated by the game.

Then there is group behavior. Forming alliances, grabbing power, going to war.

Once could create a very good simulation of a feudal-era country, then insert player characters who can go around talking to NPC, doing jobs, fighting wars, going on adventures, doing business, or even seizing political power, making war, or playing the part of the bad guys. Players could even talk to NPC, although that might be slow and cumbersome, but I suppose a regular chat system could work, as long as players entered the information in the right format. With that, it could even be possible for players to converse with NPC using voice recognition, and invalid queries can be ignored. Of course, there is the possibility of lying, but the game can, if the designers so desire, make disseminating information the player's character doesn't know into an invalid query.

It would be interesting to see what kind of novels can be written using only valid queries.

Of course, even though such a simulation would only be for large-scale behavior and should therefor be possible to make quite realistic, it should be expected that perfect realism will not be achieved.

Overgrowth MMO
Character stats:
fighting skill (NPC only)
physical: speed, strength, stamina
physical need: hunger, thirst, fatigue
skills
personality traits

Each character can have possessions.
Each character has family ties.
Each character has prestige, calculated using the character's wealth, fighting capability, and skill at his chosen occupation.
Each character has political influence, calculated using his prestige, as well as that of his relatives, including relatives through marriage.
Each character has a marriage value, calculated based the character's political influence. The value is proportional to the number of children can the character could theoretically provide its future mate. So for women it will approach 0 as they approach around age 40, while for men it would be 70 or 80.

characters will protect themselves and their property, they will protect their family from other citizens, and protect other citizens from foreigners. They will also protect members of their faction from non-members. Loyalty stats that specify who gets priority in a case of conflict of interest can be useful.

commercial life:
characters will have wants and desires, ultimately wanting they highest practical quantity at the highest quality, but settling for what they can afford. IOW, the less a character has of something relative to his need or desire, the more he is desperate to have it, and therefor the more he is willing to pay. Conversely, the more a character has relative to his need or desire, the lower the price he is willing to accept when selling it.

Characters will accumulate wealth and fulfill their needs in the most efficient manner. Therefor, characters will address their most urgent needs first. When deciding how to obtain something, they will calculate the time it would take to get it themselves and compare it with the amount of wealth they could be creating during that time, then add the cost of travel and equipment expenses to get the total cost of getting or making it themselves, then compare this to the cost of buying it from someone else or hiring someone else to perform the task. Then check which gives the best value and go with that option, but only if it is affordable. Basically, get the best bargain.
For a craftsman, it would almost always be best to produce his own product, so instead of going to fetch his own food he would get more and faster by trading his product for food, and still turn a profit greater than the savings he would enjoy by foraging for his own food.
Craftsmen will use their wealth in order to practice their trade and improve, even if buying and selling someone else's products is more profitable in the short term, only doing so if he is pressed for resources.
Those who have no particular talents may choose a job where skill doesn't affect the quality of the product, such as being a merchant, a water carrier, a woodcutter, a forager, etc. This depends on how much initial investment is required and the supply/demand balance for particular products and services. Actually, they can just do whatever odd jobs are most profitable at the moment, just as craftsmen do. But for craftsmen the most profitable job is often the one they are most skilled at. This means that there is no need to create a special case for the talentless.

Marriage
Adult singles will seek to marry those who have similar or greater political influence. The more time goes by without a match being made the more desperate they become, therefor leading them to accept lesser candidates. Also, the older a bachelor is, the less desirable they become, thus as time goes by they a lesser and lesser candidate.

Prestige and Political Influence
Different factions of different races value different attributes, but wealth, ancestry, connections, skill, and strength are probably common factors, but each might calculate things differently. A religious sect might evaluate wealth by how close a property is to a chapel and the value of the religious artifact a person possesses. Barbarians will give a lot of weight to strength, while aristocrats will favor lineage.

Politics
The leader is the most influential politician. If he is surpassed, then he may abdicate in favor of the new leader or fight for his position. The top politicians keep a personal guard, and if a shift in power seems close, they may increase it. If that happens, the old and new leaders and their allies may fight a battle for leadership, which is then granted to the highest-ranking surviving politician.
The mayor can set taxes, declare limits on imports, exports, possession, and production of items, wage war, change the city plan, build or modify public buildings, declare individuals or groups persona non grata, make treaties and alliances, and higher and set the wages on city employees including the construction, maintenance, and repair crews and the city guard, and they can spend city funds however they want.
Although this should depend on the individual's personality, for simplicity we could say that the more a mayor's family has a history of strong political influence, the likelier he is to be corrupt, taking the form of paying dividends from the treasury to himself and his allies, cutting costs and raising taxes to compensate.
If a city's military strength is great enough that it can conquer and hold on to another city without leaving itself open to attack, they mayor will do so and higher the soldiers necessary.
An overlord can levy taxes from subordinate cities and place restrictions on them.
Subordinate cities can still form alliances and rebel if they think they and their allies can hold off the overlord and his allies and subordinate's armies.
A was ends when one side is defeated, surrenders, a treaty is made, or both sides give up on conquering each other.

Examples for conditions that can end a conflict:
Defeat in a coup happens when the leader of one side dies.
Defeat in a war happens when one side has an overwhelming advantage in military might within the boundaries of the city.
An attack will be canceled if the aggressor is weakened to the point where he can no longer hold on to his his existing territory or won't be able to hold on to the city he is attacking.
The exact conditions may be different, and the list should naturally be way longer.

Various groups can also wage war, including player groups, nomadic tribes, etc.

Under certain conditions the victor in a war will take the losing population as slaves, people may be abducted to be sold as slaves or held for ransom, etc. This means rescuing captives, captives escaping, and slave revolts.

A player can also become a slave or own slaves.

The treatment slaves receive will affect their rebelliousness. So will the history of successful escapes or rebellions of slaves in that place, and their own history of failure. If a slave escapes too many times to the point where he is no longer worth the cost of recapture, he will be executed.

arrest warrants. policing. collecting taxes. storing wealth. details of treaties.

[Questica]

I'd like to see an Overgrowth MMO.

No, just- no.

[shyisc]

I'd like to see an Overgrowth MMO.

No, just- no.

Did you read anything else I wrote? Did you even think about what I'm saying before declaring your rejection? For instance, why I said MMO and not MMORPG?

[Endoperez]

It seems like in your latter, long post, you had one small paragraph about combat. The rest was about a social system, commerce, social relations, marriage, etc.

Overgrowth is a game about combat. Using it as a base for an MMO that's about social interaction... well, even if it would work, why would you want to?

[shyisc]

It seems like in your latter, long post, you had one small paragraph about combat. The rest was about a social system, commerce, social relations, marriage, etc.

Overgrowth is a game about combat. Using it as a base for an MMO that's about social interaction... well, even if it would work, why would you want to?

The exact opposite. We already know what Overgrowth is. It is the unknown that needs to be described in detail. Everything I talk about is just what I think would be needed in order to dynamically generate interesting combat scenarios for people to play through.

Using it as a base for an MMO that's about social interaction

MMO doesn't have to be about social interaction. In this conversation you should take the term literally. The point is a persistent world with players being able to fight either together or against each other. Plus with the kind of AI I want, would anything less than a server farm even be powerful enough to run such a live simulation?

[Endoperez]

[quote="shyiscThe exact opposite. We already know what Overgrowth is. It is the unknown that needs to be described in detail. Everything I talk about is just what I think would be needed in order to dynamically generate interesting combat scenarios for people to play through.{/quote]

No. You need random maps and decent AI to dynamically generate interesting combat scenarios.

You don't need commerce for combat scenarios. At most, you need random caravans that are randomly attacked by raiders.

What kind of interesting combat scenario would marriage create, for example? (well... okay, I can see one, but let's not talk about that.)

The point is a persistent world with players being able to fight either together or against each other.

How does marriage or commerce add to this point? I honestly don't understand this. You want a kind of roleplaying simulation environment, but then also a fighting game. It sounds a bit like what EVE Online has achieved, but it didn't need AI for that.

[shyisc]

[quote="shyiscThe exact opposite. We already know what Overgrowth is. It is the unknown that needs to be described in detail. Everything I talk about is just what I think would be needed in order to dynamically generate interesting combat scenarios for people to play through.{/quote]

No. You need random maps and decent AI to dynamically generate interesting combat scenarios.

You don't need commerce for combat scenarios. At most, you need random caravans that are randomly attacked by raiders.

What kind of interesting combat scenario would marriage create, for example? (well... okay, I can see one, but let's not talk about that.)

The point is a persistent world with players being able to fight either together or against each other.

How does marriage or commerce add to this point? I honestly don't understand this. You want a kind of roleplaying simulation environment, but then also a fighting game. It sounds a bit like what EVE Online has achieved, but it didn't need AI for that.

[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]
I'm not familiar with those other games.

As to why just random events alone don't satisfy me, it's because they aren't organic. Things that feel too artificial aren't interesting, but when a scenario arises from the complexity of the game then it is like a real life event, and those are always interesting even if they are really just variation x on serial killer theme b. That is why I describe a complex system. As to why I want families, part of it is because like the economy, it makes the game world feel like people are living in it, part of it is the politics, and part of it is something I may not have mentioned, which is that the characters should be born, grow old, and die. If time in the game passes 60 times faster than real life so a day in the game is 24 minutes, then 6 days are a year. Movement of population, including the creation of new settlements, the expansion of existing ones, etc, also make the world feel more alive and therefor more interesting.

[Horridius]

You raise some very good points, but I don't think it will work with Overgrowth. Even after the CPU usage of overgrowth has been reduced, it will still take alot of power.

Rendering a whole village would be a challenge.

Rendering a whole village with AI consantly interacting with eachother would make your pc go slow.

Rendering a whole village with AI consantly interacting with eachother and meanwhile rendering a fight in the village or near the village would make your pc explode.

In fights, blood dripping and ragdolls have to be rendered, don't think that will work out well. Especially if it are large groups. Overgrowth doesn't seem the game for your ideas. Maybe in a few years a game who plays like skyrim could work with this idea. But not Overgrowth where the combat is pretty detailed and rendering the combat is a priority. The current generation of pc's won't be able to handle it.

Also to implement all these ideas would require an insane piece of programming.

[shyisc]

You raise some very good points, but I don't think it will work with Overgrowth. Even after the CPU usage of overgrowth has been reduced, it will still take alot of power.

Rendering a whole village would be a challenge.

Rendering a whole village with AI consantly interacting with eachother would make your pc go slow.

Rendering a whole village with AI consantly interacting with eachother and meanwhile rendering a fight in the village or near the village would make your pc explode.

In fights, blood dripping and ragdolls have to be rendered, don't think that will work out well. Especially if it are large groups. Overgrowth doesn't seem the game for your ideas. Maybe in a few years a game who plays like skyrim could work with this idea. But not Overgrowth where the combat is pretty detailed and rendering the combat is a priority. The current generation of pc's won't be able to handle it.

Also to implement all these ideas would require an insane piece of programming.

Just a technicality, but that's why I said MMO. Having one instance of the game running for everybody on a server should help with the costs of running the AI.

Nevertheless, you are probably right. But I'm still allowed to dream, right?

[Horridius]

Just a technicality, but that's why I said MMO. Having one instance of the game running for everybody on a server should help with the costs of running the AI.

Nevertheless, you are probably right. But I'm still allowed to dream, right?

You certainly are, personally I would love to see this kind of game.

[TheWujek]

I'd really love that idea.
The thought of a non-RPG MMO like this... wow.

Just messing around with some buddys. Different factions, every faction with some clans, every clan with some self-made leader, everything made by players.
Some would be wolves, some would be cats, some would just be rats and some would be a bunch of everything mixed up in a raider clan ...

Combine this with the possibility of building your own walls/->houses and or tearing them down. Dynamic creation of weapon depending on your skill as a blacksmith (I mean real skill with the hammer, not some points in an RPG...)

The other game I would very much love to be such an MMO would be Stalker, and every true fan of the series must agree with that (however Stalker is build up on Client/Server Architecture, so the devs really thought about it. Some alpha even supported other people joining your game)

I do not really see how people are so repelled by the idea.
I mean - sure I love to have a super-immersive story with epic setpieces and great level design and athmosphere. And I really hope Overgrowth can be a game like that.
But at the end... why not have some fun with my buddies? This I'd enjoy a million times more than for instance "challenge levels". Meh.