Violence and its impact

[Arctrum]

Hello peoples!

I wanted to talk about something today, and that is about violence. I am not against it at all, and I think, in a lot of games, it adds a lot to the gameplay. What I want to talk about is how it falls into this game.

Should we feel bad when we cut down an enemy and watch him scream and bleed out? Or should it be an everyday thing? Think about a game like DayZ. When you kill someone in DayZ, you really feel bad. The game leaves you with this sense of regret and pitty for the poor fool you just killed. DayZ does this through the context of the situation however, not through violence.

Violence can leave you with that same sense of pitty and regret. If there is this sense of a painful death: squirming, bleeding, screaming etc., perhaps jumping in and slicing through every enemy in our path WONT be our first option.


It all comes down to what we and the developers want out of the game. Do we want an engaging, story driven, emotion evoking game full of adventure where you can either slaughter every enemy in your path, watching them squirm and bleed to death without remorse? Or avoid a fight at every chance because you are committed to being kind and humane...making sure that whenever you make a kill, it is fast and painless so you don't have to watch them die? Or do we want Street Fighter bunny addition?

In the current form, the street fighter is kind of what it feels like (But it is in Alpha...I am not expecting a story or campaign for a LOOOONG time.) and they are laying the foundation to build what can be an absolutely epic game capable of all the things I said above.

So tell me, what are your feelings on what I have said?

P.S
Don't hate, its just an opinion

[olza]

I like these ideas, they could be hard to build into the current game, but I definitely agree.
Currently a quick death would probably be a stealthy throat slit, and I can't really think of how that could happen unarmed (without neck breaking, which I don't like due to realism issues + overpowered).
But if this sort of emotion evoking could be built into the game I would be in full support, I think mindless violence adds nothing to games nowadays.

[Horridius]

I like these ideas, they could be hard to build into the current game, but I definitely agree.
Currently a quick death would probably be a stealthy throat slit, and I can't really think of how that could happen unarmed (without neck breaking, which I don't like due to realism issues + overpowered).
But if this sort of emotion evoking could be built into the game I would be in full support, I think mindless violence adds nothing to games nowadays.

It's not breaking his neck, you cut of his blood supply to the brain so he goes unconscious in a matter of ten seconds. You can check this if you spawn one enemy and choke him. When you press T for the end screen his icon will still be green which means he's not dead but just unconscious.

[Endoperez]

Here's the relevant blog post with David's thoughts on it:

http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/03/Alternatives-to-killing

[Arctrum]

Here's the relevant blog post with David's thoughts on it:

http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/03/Alternatives-to-killing

Thank you for that. I had no idea there had been a blog post referring to this. I am really happy to see that he wants alternatives to killing, I think that will add HUUUGE amounts of content to the game as a finished product

[olza]

I know we currently don't break the neck, however that is the only non-weapon quick death I can think of. Choking/cutting blood flow doesn't seem particularly painless...

[Nekros22]

I don't understand your hesitation since you never posted an opinion. We're not going to bite your head off here

As you well know it is entirely possible to create an engaging, intricate and interesting story in a game alongside violence. In some games, such as the classic Doom shooters or Duke Nukem, violence becomes ironic; a replacement of story and engagement in favor of humor. I felt as though you were referring to those types of games in your post.

Overgrowth has several stylistically unique assets that set it apart from other games. Its realistic portrayal of violence (as compared to other games) is a curious set piece when placed alongside its anthropomorphic characters, but both build off of and complement each other.

[Retarded Username]

I suppose a good example of this is Deus Ex: Human Revolution, killing enemies gives penalties to the player, while making them unconscious rewards the player.

By the way, this is an interesting post, combo breaker to the "I have ideas" posts

[EPR89]

Usually when I find a weapon I try to get every last enemy on the level. With one exception.
In one of the custom maps you had to reach a temple and make an offering to your deity (when I remember the name of the map, I'll edit this post.
EDIT: It's Chartre's Campaign, Chapter 1 )included in the menu mod).
You start close to a raider camp with one guard and a knife. If you sneak in and kill the guard, you have a knife and one opponent less.
Here's the catch: when you sneak around it the author has added some messages. You hear raiders talking. About their families. After reading this I avoided every single opponent on the map and just tried to reach the goal... The goal where you had to make an offering.
It was a pretty simple storyline, but it completely changed the way I played this map.

[Korban3]

Yeah, David really wants to put an emphasis on how much violence the player uses, as far as I've heard. Making us second guess hacking enemies apart with large axes and stuff is pretty brutal, so why not make the player feel bad for doing it. It's a give-take thing. You get the awesome of brutal death by cold steel, but the regret because of how horrible it really is.

[Advance123]

I hope it's a Dishonored sort of system. That did the consequences of killing better than any other game, in my opinion. It'd be good for things like characters being dead and staying dead for the whole game or staying alive for the whole game. Killing lots of enemies could weaken certain armies, but equally make them a lot more aggressive or defensive. So, while I don't think the option of killing is bad in and of itself, but the option should only be there if the opposing option is also.

Though, they are animals. Much less civilised, so violence may be very common in that world where it's a vital ability for survival.

[Noz]

Yeah, David really wants to put an emphasis on how much violence the player uses, as far as I've heard. Making us second guess hacking enemies apart with large axes and stuff is pretty brutal, so why not make the player feel bad for doing it. It's a give-take thing. You get the awesome of brutal death by cold steel, but the regret because of how horrible it really is.

That seems like a pretty good way to play the game. I think a little bit of consequence for ultra violence would be good to keep the player immersed in the game. When there is no consequence for violence, every game just becomes space invaders. There is no emotion mixed with gameplay. Most games try to separate the two (which is why I despise almost all cutscenes). Gameplay should be intertwined with story and emotion. That way, you can feel fear, sadness, excitement, triumph, defeat, and pride when you go through a level with or without killing someone.

[Noz]

Yeah, David really wants to put an emphasis on how much violence the player uses, as far as I've heard. Making us second guess hacking enemies apart with large axes and stuff is pretty brutal, so why not make the player feel bad for doing it. It's a give-take thing. You get the awesome of brutal death by cold steel, but the regret because of how horrible it really is.

That seems like a pretty good way to play the game. I think a little bit of consequence for ultra violence would be good to keep the player immersed in the game. When there is no consequence for violence, every game just becomes space invaders. There is no emotion mixed with gameplay. Most games try to separate the two (which is why I despise almost all cutscenes). Gameplay should be intertwined with story and emotion. That way, you can feel fear, sadness, excitement, triumph, defeat, and pride when you go through a level with or without killing someone.

AS long as it isn't single button morality (BioShock), I'd be more than okay with it.

[Black_Stormy]

'Edit' button is right next to your 'quote' button there Noz.

I think in games it is hard to really make the player feel much regret for killing anyone, and the anthropomorphic animals in OG make it quite a bit more of a challenge for the devs to get players to relate to the enemies well enough to actually regret killing them. In Uncharted 2 you can stealth kill an enemy by grabbing their head and snapping their neck over your shoulder. When I think of regretting a kill, that example leaps to mind. It's dark, the lack of blood makes it even more gruesome, and the sound is sickening.

In Dishonored I played through once without killing many people, then went through and massacred everyone. I didn't really regret much, the story didn't change and the only thing that made me feel off was the reactions of the little girl you protect. I think the problem with this is that the act of killing was empowering for the player, and therefore rewarding. Although sometimes when you kill a guard his mate will say "You made someone a widow you bastard" and I think that's along the right track, but not hard hitting enough.

In Assassins Creed 1 you could stab an innocent civilian and they would writhe around on the floor much like the semi-ragdoll squirming animations in OG, but he would cry and groan and that would make you feel pretty bad. You could emphasize that further by having onlookers wail and cry and panic etc. Or perhaps have a child spawn off screen and run to the person on the floor and start crying. Not very relevant to OG but food for thought.

If you want killing to be truly horrific I think it needs to be portrayed as dark as it really is. It's a last resort, not a goal. Anyone remember the level in lugaru where you found a family of wolves? Anyone remember the two kids that you killed? That wasn't particularly harrowing because there was no other option presented to you, and nothing was really shown to project the wolves as kids. In a situation like that I would like to see some family representation. For instance the male wolf could run out to protect its family while they cowered, and the children cried. Would you slit the throats of a mother and her two crying children purely because you can? I think that's the kind of impact David is going for in Overgrowth.

But I don't think that getting the player to relate to the thing they kill is going to be a very effective way to create emotion since the enemies are animals. Maybe there are other concepts that the devs will focus on instead, and I think it will take an amalgamation of a lot of different ideas to really make the player think.