Requesting refund, dissatisfied pre-order customer

[Wapos]

Hi,

I pre-ordered the game on 6/18/2012.

Shortly after ordering, I posted a brief lament on these forums, saying that I felt ripped-off (after struggling to get the Alpha to run at all, etc.). One of the members of the creative team rushed to offer me a refund at that time, apologizing, and saying that he didn't want anyone to feel ripped off.

I appreciated his gesture, but I declined, thinking that I would give the game a chance to progress (and, frankly, the fact that I saw so many people on these forums had faith in the project made me more inclined to give Wolfire another chance).

Well, it is now Feb. of 2014; for the first time in a very long time, I downloaded an Alpha (205).

I have to say, after so much time having elapsed, I really do feel ripped off. I really do wish I had accepted the offer of a refund when it was offered.

I also do understand that the customer makes a gamble in purchasing Alpha software; nothing is guaranteed (neither hardware requirements, nor the date of completion, etc.).

I also know that there are some infamous examples of games that went unfinished for more than five years, etc. --and that Overgrowth is unlikely to be ranked on the list of worst offenders, when it finally is completed.

However, I've got to tell you: I went into this with an awareness of all those factors, and, still, I am a badly disappointed customer. Without being particularly jejune about technology, the youtube videos (etc.) probably did give me an inflated set of expectations; however, more than a year and a half later, I don't really think that my expectations were so unreasonable.

If the offer of a refund is still in the air (and, I assume, my humble bundle key can be nullified for the game, or something like that), then, please, I'll take it.

[Endoperez]

Unless something has changed recently (which I doubt), they still offer a pretty much no-questions-asked policy on refunds.

[EPR89]

Wow.
So much text and you didn't actually say why a205 caused you to want a refund.

I mean, I understand that you probably feel like needing an outlet for your disappointment, but if you do take that step you could at least try to make some sense. Who knows, maybe people could even help you to find out what is wrong.

Also, little nit picking: you didn't actually purchase alpha software. You purchased the finished game and as a thank you, the developers give you access to the unofficial alpha releases.

[AmorphousGamer]

Also, little nit picking: you didn't actually purchase alpha software. You purchased the finished game and as a thank you, the developers give you access to the unofficial alpha releases.

This. So many people fail to understand this.
Anyways, if you really want a refund I'm pretty sure you can email [email protected] with your proof that you purchased the game and they can give you a refund.

[Lotus Wolf]

Also, since EPR89 and AmorphousGamers points have already been made why exagiticly was it, again, that brought this about?

I thought a lot of progress has been made since 2012, and no, I still can't support the game myself, but that's because I'm running a salvaged motioncomputing tablet from '05. However, I bought my brother a used/like new computer a while back for $250, it's about 2 years old at this point and it runs the alphas pretty well. Now I may be assuming in the wrong direction, but can you run the alphas on your machine? And if not, Overgrowth might be a cool one to check out once you've upgraded, cheap as it is these days.

[Endoperez]

He is dissatisfied because OG takes so long to finish. It IS a bummer - I was surprisef too and I was studyong games when I ordered. Totally legitimate reason imo.

[Anton]

To contact the wolfire team about a refund, you should email them at [email protected] - if you include your transaction ID (supplied by your payment provider) they can track down your order easiest. I'm sure they will still offer you a refund, if you want it.

[Glabbit]

Wapos, if you don't mind too much, I was wondering if, before you email contact@wolfire, you'd like to tell us why exactly you feel disappointed with OG's current state?

I don't think I've seen such a heartfelt post of disappointment before, and bigods am I curious as to what put you off o:

[iosappsrock]

Wapos, if you don't mind too much, I was wondering if, before you email contact@wolfire, you'd like to tell us why exactly you feel disappointed with OG's current state?

I don't think I've seen such a heartfelt post of disappointment before, and bigods am I curious as to what put you off o:

I am merely speculating on his behalf, but I think a lot of us are secretly disappointed in the fact that the game has been in development for so long, and is basically still the same. It's an extremely (almost painfully) slow development process, and there's not all that much to show for it yet.

For Overgrowth, the whole promised "weekly updates" has gone down the drain. Now we're lucky to see a very simple update once a month. These updates usually offer random things like "I fixed fur movement", or "this character's tail looks nicer now".

Just my thoughts. I am personally happy with Overgrowth as is, and I've gotten my $30.00 worth out of it. Still, I'd like to see more out of it too.

Do the math: 67858 members on the preorder forum. We all purchased overgrowth for around $29.99. That means the devs have at least $2,035,061.42 of our money. I hate to say it, but could they not just hire some help? That's over 2 million bucks. I know video games are expensive to develop, but two million dollars is more than enough to get development moving along much faster than it currently is...

[Endoperez]

Do the math: 67858 members on the preorder forum. We all purchased overgrowth for around $29.99. That means the devs have at least $2,035,061.42 of our money. I hate to say it, but could they not just hire some help? That's over 2 million bucks. I know video games are expensive to develop, but two million dollars is more than enough to get development moving along much faster than it currently is...

2 M dollars, over 5 years (60 months) gives an average of just 33k per month. Enough for a team of 2, yes, and in fact enough for a team of 4-5 people or so, assuming average salary of 7k per month (based on the numbers here). However, not enough for a big team.

Then consider all the expenses - outsourcing, equipment, taxes, healthcare... For a company in Finland, the costs of employing a person are often said to be about twice his or her actual salary.

Now I'll quote a bit from the recent Reddit thread

The problem with scaling up is that we either need to scale up a lot, or not at all. That is, I would have to become an engineering lead, and Aubrey would have to become an art director, and then we could coordinate multiple programmers and artists efficiently. However, it would be really hard to just add one more programmer or one more artist, because then we would probably have to spend half our time coordinating, and there would be no net win.

Hope that answers your question

[iosappsrock]

2 M dollars, over 5 years (60 months) gives an average of just 33k per month. Enough for a team of 2, yes, and in fact enough for a team of 4-5 people or so, assuming average salary of 7k per month (based on the numbers here). However, not enough for a big team.

Then consider all the expenses - outsourcing, equipment, taxes, healthcare... For a company in Finland, the costs of employing a person are often said to be about twice his or her actual salary.

I agree with you, I'm not really blaming what they're doing. I also understand that Finland is more expensive. Still, your post actually supports my point somewhat, which is: The longer they take, the less that money is worth, simply due to living expenses, etc.

Also, take a look at the article again. The numbers you quoted for developer salary are for very "big name" devs. We're talking, Ubi, EA, etc.

That same page also has the yearly number listed for Indie devs, and their average income. about 23k per year. More math: 23k x 4 people = 92,000. ----- 92,000 x 5 years = 460,000. So, right now they are basically quadroupling the average indie salery, and are making somewhere between an indie developer, and what a big name dev makes. Seems pretty good to me...

[Endoperez]

When they started, David had already declined offers to work on those big companies: "Blizzard, Ubisoft, Raven, and Crytek." He's gotten better since. Hiring more Davids could get expensive. Then again, there are lots of talented indie developers whose games aren't making money, and who are looking for a job and who'd be happy to work for much less than Ubisoft et all are offering.

Any way, it's good to remember that all of these numbers are just guesses - they might be good ones, but they might also be wrong. We could go around debating what we think they can afford, but the reply from the Reddit thread makes it clear that they can't just pick a developer off the shelf and be done with it. As it is, I feel like having a long argument about this would be pointless, even if it was informative.

[iosappsrock]

Any way, it's good to remember that all of these numbers are just guesses - they might be good ones, but they might also be wrong. We could go around debating what we think they can afford, but the reply from the Reddit thread makes it clear that they can't just pick a developer off the shelf and be done with it. As it is, I feel like having a long argument about this would be pointless, even if it was informative.

You are right, I suppose it's all merely speculation. I hope I didn't come across as wanting to argue. More, I was just curious. Shows how little I do know about developing a game.

At any rate, I'm still happy that I preordered Overgrowth. It's actually hard for me to imagine what it'll be like when it's done, but I have lots of high hopes.

[Endoperez]

Nah, don't worry. You're poolite AND open to new info and that's all one could ask for. I should've used "debate" instead of "argue", I didn't mean it in a bad way.

[Glabbit]

^Pinnacle of internet diplomacy, you guys.
I applaud you both.