Weapons

[Johannes]

In the recent Poll about keeping the 'real life' style inventory system established in lugaru 1, or adopting an RP style 'Bottomless bag' inventory system opinions seem to be predominately on keeping the real life system, meaning you can only use what you can realistically carry.

I think this limitation leads to strategies and different playing styles, that just wouldn't happen when you can just pull out any weapon at any time. It forces you to make a conscious decision to choosing your weapon, not to mention having a bag UI just wouldn't fit in with the 'no visible UI elements in-game' theory that Lugaru has followed up to now.
Before I go on any further, if you have an opinion about which inventory system is better, please post them in this forum.
This topic deals only with the real life inventory system, and how it might affect weapons design.

Which brings me to my main point:
Assuming a style like the original Lugaru, where you can only hold 2 (maybe 3 if you have dual wielded small weapons like daggers) on your person at any one time, you have to make a conscious choice about what weapon to take with you at points where you can pick up new ones, and will have to live with that choice until the next time you can change. Lugaru 1 only had 3 weapons, 4 if you count unarmed, and each was its own class of weapon; each had its own pros and cons (daggers could be thrown but light, staffs had powerful knockdowns, but would break, etc.).

We've seen some of the new weapons that the team has designed so far, and though they all look very cool, I feel that because of the limitation that the real life inventory presents that the weapons should make use of it in providing pros and cons and really depend more on the user's play style as opposed to 'how quickly you can 1-hit an enemy'.
Especially this should be the case when one weapon goes up against another. Just using the 3 weapon system from lugaru as an example, this would be as follows:
staff tends to beat dagger (longer range)
dagger tends to beat sword (faster)
sword tends to beat staff (sword could block, and in doing so damage staff)
Of-course Lugaru 2 has many weapons, not just 3, but I feel it should follow similar rules, that each weapon should be a conscious trade-off. The best way to do this with the weapons I've seen so far might be to have certain 'classes', with basic rules as I've mentioned in the example above, though each weapon having slight pros/cons that differentiate it from other ones.

I'm sure the dev team already has a set idea on weapons and their mechanics, so ignore this post if you don't feel it is relevant. However I think it definitely is worth discussing.

[Skofo]

I think that different weapons having different strengths and weaknesses in this game is pretty much a given.

[Johannes]

I think that different weapons having different strengths and weaknesses in this game is pretty much a given.

Yes, ofcourse, there'd be no fun otherwise. I'm just trying to stress that there shouldn't be the 'one weapon of choice' when you have all the weapons at your disposal, as many other games do. I'm all for weapons at different levels of use, like for example at the beginning you can use crappy swords/ daggers, etc. and later on you find/gain access to more powerful swords/daggers etc. however you should never just get to a point where you just always use that one end game weapon.

[Glabbit]

there'd be no fun otherwise.

This is the only part I disagree on.

Other than that, keep rolling!

[Johannes]

there'd be no fun otherwise.

This is the only part I disagree on.

Other than that, keep rolling!

you don't think variety is more fun? (Unless you mean it literally. I didn't actually mean that there'd be actually no fun at all. it's just a figure of speech)
I certainly know I've been wishing for more weapons after I finished playing the original for a while.

[Lotus Wolf]

i think the 'bottomless bag' is BS, a system where you carry 2/3 weapons is great, but i had a thought: maybe there could be a system where you have a small inventory for extra items/weapons that you can switch your in-game weapons with, only when not in combat. that way you could carry a sword in the inventory, and have your 2 knives with you in-game, but wouldn't be able to change to the sword until the fighting was finished.
for example:
i'm carrying a sword, and i have two knives in my bag. a rabbit ambushes me, and i'm better with my two knives against rabbits, but cannot switch to them as i'd have to stop the fight, dig in the bag, equip the knives, get a feel for them, then keep fighting. *unrealistic* so with that in mind: im not so good with a sword against rabbits and the rabbit disarms me, i am now unarmed, and still cannot switch to the knives. i trip the rabbit, pick up the sword, kick the rabbit, then stab him while he's still on the ground. the fight is now over, so i put the sword away, and take out the knives, in case there are more rabbits around.

see how that would be kind of realistic, with weapons in inventory being inaccessible during combat. and also the small, 1/2 weapons, in the inventory at a time.

another small unimportant thing i think would be cool would be carrying a sword on your back, but thats not important.

oh, im on a roll: maybe the inventory could be an aquired item, that you wouldn't start off with. like a backpack that you would find somewhere, or you buy, or is given to you, or you steal it from an enemy.

i'll stop now

[Johannes]

i think the 'bottomless bag' is BS, a system where you carry 2/3 weapons is great, but i had a thought: maybe there could be a system where you have a small inventory for extra items/weapons that you can switch your in-game weapons with, only when not in combat. that way you could carry a sword in the inventory, and have your 2 knives with you in-game, but wouldn't be able to change to the sword until the fighting was finished.
for example:
i'm carrying a sword, and i have two knives in my bag. a rabbit ambushes me, and i'm better with my two knives against rabbits, but cannot switch to them as i'd have to stop the fight, dig in the bag, equip the knives, get a feel for them, then keep fighting. *unrealistic* so with that in mind: im not so good with a sword against rabbits and the rabbit disarms me, i am now unarmed, and still cannot switch to the knives. i trip the rabbit, pick up the sword, kick the rabbit, then stab him while he's still on the ground. the fight is now over, so i put the sword away, and take out the knives, in case there are more rabbits around.

see how that would be kind of realistic, with weapons in inventory being inaccessible during combat. and also the small, 1/2 weapons, in the inventory at a time.

another small unimportant thing i think would be cool would be carrying a sword on your back, but thats not important.

oh, im on a roll: maybe the inventory could be an aquired item, that you wouldn't start off with. like a backpack that you would find somewhere, or you buy, or is given to you, or you steal it from an enemy.

i'll stop now

I think you make some great points. carrying a realistically sized small bag would be nicer than the typical bottomless one but again it would have the interface element to it... unless you can somehow manage visually with animation that makes sense and doesn't require any real UI elements.

But I think the best thing would just be to add what you suggested, a slot on the back for large weapons, reserving the hips for smaller ones. Not only would it be realistic, and keeping with the original lugaru UI design, but also very bad-ass. Perhaps you could run faster with the sword/staff/catana/etc. strapped to your back, yes? or maybe you could only sneak when it's on your back, it would drag on the ground and make noise if you had it on the hip, and therefore the sword would automatically not be usable as an ideal assasination/backstab weapon. I like this idea alot.

[Lotus Wolf]

I think you make some great points. carrying a realistically sized small bag would be nicer than the typical bottomless one but again it would have the interface element to it... unless you can somehow manage visually with animation that makes sense and doesn't require any real UI elements.

But I think the best thing would just be to add what you suggested, a slot on the back for large weapons, reserving the hips for smaller ones. Not only would it be realistic, and keeping with the original lugaru UI design, but also very bad-ass. Perhaps you could run faster with the sword/staff/catana/etc. strapped to your back, yes? or maybe you could only sneak when it's on your back, it would drag on the ground and make noise if you had it on the hip, and therefore the sword would automatically not be usable as an ideal assasination/backstab weapon. I like this idea alot.

i noticed that in Lugaru you cannot run animal-style while holding the sword or staff, so putting it on your back so you could run would be cool.

[Johannes]

...

i noticed that in Lugaru you cannot run animal-style while holding the sword or staff, so putting it on your back so you could run would be cool.

Exactly! =D

[Chainsaw man]

Something a little more in depth about weapons, I would like to see the ability to pick up anything, jugs, plank of wood, bar of steel, farming equipment, a stray arm or leg of a warrior, or tree branches able to be used as weapons. Basically, anything not bolted down. I'm expecting Disarmament quite periodically after fighting with swords in L1 so this could be a plus to grab a table leg and club the hell out of that guy who just broke your sword. I would also like to see the ability to pick up rocks and drop them on your enemy's. Murder holes anyone?

[Makrond]

Oh hells yes. I think all the way back when Overgrowth was still called Lugaru 2 (oooh, long time ago, that ) David said we'd be able to break trees and use branches as weapons, so improvised weaponry is almost a must.

[Lotus Wolf]

SWEET!!!

[Johannes]

Something a little more in depth about weapons, I would like to see the ability to pick up anything, jugs, plank of wood, bar of steel, farming equipment, a stray arm or leg of a warrior, or tree branches able to be used as weapons. Basically, anything not bolted down. I'm expecting Disarmament quite periodically after fighting with swords in L1 so this could be a plus to grab a table leg and club the hell out of that guy who just broke your sword. I would also like to see the ability to pick up rocks and drop them on your enemy's. Murder holes anyone?

Lots of great ideas here. A truly awesome feature in L1 was being able to blade-sling the small knives/daggers. Being able to launch random pieces of environment at the opponent would be a great addition!

I've mentioned before I love the idea of being able to have a stealthy, or an all out blades-a-blazing play style, and I think being able to use many things as weapons would really play into this. A stealthy assassin could use heavy objects to silently take out a target. Conversely a all out fighter would be using heavy swords and, if the game becomes that gruesome, removed limbs could be used as a weapons in case your main one is lost or broken, but they would lack some of the extra features of the explicit weapons. For example you can't wear limbs on your back, or pots on your belt.

Hehe, I'm visualizing sneaking over rooftops silently, then on-top of the, silently taking out the rooftop patrol, then taking a heavy stone statue or gargoyle from the ledge and dropping it onto another guard, silently crushing him. Using a pot would work too, but it would be noisy.
However it should not do it like some games by showing a 'press E to use' message and then playing a cut-scene of the character throwing the object over the side, but instead really have the player pick it up using the in game mechanics, and manually dropping it, perhaps with impaired movement and no/limited jumping ability while carrying it.

[rollercoaster]

Hehe, I'm visualizing sneaking over rooftops silently, then on-top of the, silently taking out the rooftop patrol, then taking a heavy stone statue or gargoyle from the ledge and dropping it onto another guard, silently crushing him. Using a pot would work too, but it would be noisy.

you seriously believe that a stone gargoyle falling from a tall building is silent???

But i agree having weapons with multiple uses like the daggers is a great idea!
another example could be a spear, you can parry with it, stab "people" (i use that in the loosest term possible, heh) with it and throw it.

im sitting thinking of the possebilites you could have with ranged weapons such as blowpipes, bows and crossbows, while i think they would be cool to have im not sure if they wouldnt be just to overpowered. but thats up to the devs.

[Johannes]

Hehe, I'm visualizing sneaking over rooftops silently, then on-top of the, silently taking out the rooftop patrol, then taking a heavy stone statue or gargoyle from the ledge and dropping it onto another guard, silently crushing him. Using a pot would work too, but it would be noisy.

you seriously believe that a stone gargoyle falling from a tall building is silent???

yeahh, good point... I guess I meant more like, a large rock. *shrugs*

im sitting thinking of the possibility you could have with ranged weapons such as blowpipes, bows and crossbows, while I think they would be cool to have i'm not sure if they wouldn't be just to overpowered. But that's up to the devs.

I'm really turned off by distinctly ranged weapons... it would require a view change and some kind of aiming interface, which goes against the no-Hud style of lugaru... I buy throwing a weapon without aiming, but a bow and arrow or even crossbow need accuracy, and at least some kind of a meter you use for aiming... though I'd be willing to change my standpoint of Wolfire manages them to implement them in a believable way:
1. The use has to be fair, and believable without a HUD.
2. You should not be able to just pull it out of nothing during a fight and get a perfect aim on the target, and I'd prefer my own skill accounting for the accuracy, not the amount of time i've spent 'aiming'.