Level Editor Suggestions

[Johannes]

This topic is for suggesting features for the editor.

Of-course The Editor is still a work in progress along with the rest of Overgrowth, and I have no doubt that many of these suggestions are already on the Phillip's List.

Nonetheless, with our collective minds we might be able to think up some features that are not on the list yet, or at least help prioritize what features to add next.

( Before adding your own, please make sure to read through suggestions people have made so far. Thank you )


Here are some I have thought of so far.
Note: I am using Alpha 10 on mac. I don't know if some features work differently on windows. Some of my suggestions are mac specific. Please, only post constructive comments, if you must comment on my suggestions. Save the mac-flaming for the IRC.

1. Using jump (default space) and crouch (default shift) to move the editor camera up and down respectively.

2. Allow the arrow keys to be used for rotating the view when none of the transformation tools are selected.

3. Some kind of a model preview. A possible solution could be like resource browser used in Garry's mod:

Garrys-mod browser

But ofcourse more efficient. (i'm certain this is already on the list one way or another)

4. Change box selection to not be right-click+left-click. Instead make it: Shift+left-click/drag = add to selection, Option(alt)+left-click/drag = remove from selection. The current default, right-click+left-click cannot be done on the mac version (where right-click seeming to be command+click)

5. a) Have the console be a scrollable, movable window.
b) Have the console record typed commands on separate lines, not just their results. (I could go on, but I'm sure the console is far from done.)

6. When objects are grouped together they should rotate and scale around their averaged center. not independently as if they were not grouped.

7. Shift+p should toggle wireframe on models.

8. Having some way of reseting the rotation or translating to what it is when the object is loaded, like shift+double-click when rotate or translate tool is selected.

10. Having a way to change the Hotkeys of each tool. For example, when using the 'Translate' tool, being able to have 'move along axis' being the left-click as default instead of shift+right-click. A 'Preferences' window for doing this would be best.

11. Holding option(alt) currently only duplicates the object when using the transformation tools with the arrow keys. not when holding it and dragging the mouse. This is probably just a temporary bug.

12. Make the backspace key work for deleting stuff just like the delete key.

13. Make number keys 1-6 switch the tools as in previous versions. Again, probably just a temporary bug.

[Ozymandias]

Right click, in my opinion, should be used for rotating the camera. Left clicking should be for selecting, manipulating, etc. Instead of shift and space for moving up and down, maybe Q and E (or Q and Z or something to that effect) instead, as shift is used for special selections and you don't want to be constantly moving into the ground as you're trying to select something on top of a building.

Holding down SHIFT, CTRL, and ALT (or command and squiggle line [forget the name of it]) in different combinations should be used for different kinds of manipulation (such as in photoshop. Shift-clicking using the move tool would move the object vertically, horizontally, or at a 45 degree angle. Holding alt would duplicate it as you move. Holding both would make a duplication at a 45 degree angle... etc.)

[Mykei]

1) Scroll wheel should be used to zoom in and out with the camera

2) Instead of a green box around a selected object, the object should have a light texture over it to show it's selected, just like farcry2's map editor. With lots of objects close together it's hard to see what is selected and what isn't.

3) A 'List' or 'browser' of current objects in the map.
Object List:

Box
Box
Box
House

And so on..

Clicking a object in the list would select the object. (I really hope something like this is added because working with lots of small models close together is almost impossible to select and work with)

4) Precise in-game movement, rotating and scaling
What I mean by that is, if you look at the .xml of a map or saved object in a text editor it has the exact position of that model in the map, Ive started to map by using a text editor, editing the position, saving then reloading the game. Why not have this In-game? Have text boxes that allow you to change the values of: t0="2.491574" t1="128.274612" t2="-26.381531" in real time.

A example i whipped up in 3 minutes so sorry if it looks like ass.
)

If you open up 3dsmax it has exactly what I'm talking about, I know you guys want to stay away from a cluttered UI but 3 or so text boxes in a window wouldn't be cluttered.

I've had these ideas in my head for quite a while but was reluctant to make a post about it in-case the wolfire team thought they were stupid or something.

[infoshrew]

Good ideas everyone!

To add a little to some of the suggestions

3) A 'List' or 'browser' of current objects in the map.
Object List:

Box
Box
Box
House

And so on..

I like this one... there's nothing more frustrating then trying to select an object that's surrounded by a bunch of other objects and not being able to get to it, whereas, if you have a list, you can find the exact object you want without needing to see it and can select it immediately and without any chance of accidentally selecting a different one.

It would also be nice if you were able to name objects and groups (at least groups, if not the objects) so that you can organize the environment nicely and not get lost in all the boxes and such

4) Precise in-game movement, rotating and scaling
What I mean by that is, if you look at the .xml of a map or saved object in a text editor it has the exact position of that model in the map, Ive started to map by using a text editor, editing the position, saving then reloading the game. Why not have this In-game? Have text boxes that allow you to change the values of: t0="2.491574" t1="128.274612" t2="-26.381531" in real time.

If you open up 3dsmax it has exactly what I'm talking about, I know you guys want to stay away from a cluttered UI but 3 or so text boxes in a window wouldn't be cluttered.

I think it's very important to have the ability to do direct value entry for positioning objects. Yes, the vast majority of positioning will likely be done with the mouse, but sometimes you just can't get an object exactly where you want or move it that fraction of an inch easily with a mouse.

This could be an interface feature that isn't on by default, but I think everyone would appreciate having it available if they need it for that last little bit of fine-tuning of their worlds.

[Ozymandias]

One more thing I'd like to add... you mentioned selected objects getting a light texture over it. maybe objects you hover over could get a similar texture, because I tried to select a pillar and it selected the object behind it for some reason.

[Mykei]

Yeah, selecting objects that are close together are very hard to select, custom models are anyway.

[Johannes]

(the following is part of a post I made in reply to phillip in the alpha 11 forum. I figured it would be more appropriate here too)

The Grouping of objects works, and when you group groups together they do indeed change color, but sometimes they seem to go towards orange, sometimes green.

I'm confused as to which means which... should single level groups have different colors than other single level groups?

Yeah, group color is still in progress. In A11 it indicates how many objects are in the group, but that's just a placeholder to test out the color wheel functions. I want color to be informative. I think your right in implying that color should tell how high in the hierarchy a group is. The cool thing is color is perceptually three dimensional (hue, saturation, and value), so I'll probably make each dimension convey some separate information. Hue probably for hierarchy level. Anyone have ideas for saturation and value (i.e. brightness)?

Yeah that makes sense.
(I also just noticed you use color based feedback when you use the 'Normal' transformation and make it smaller than a certain size. it tells you how close you are to making it too thin. I like that alot.)

What information do we have to convey... hierarchical depth for one, but what other information might be useful... perhaps what other objects are in the object's group one level down, like, how close are objects hierarchically. this would be usefull if many objects are in seperate groups, but equally deep in the hierarchy.

For example:

- You have 4 cubes: cube 1-1, cube 2-1, cube 3-1, and cube 4-1
(2-1 means object 2, copy 1)
- group them (makes group 1-1)
- duplicate the group (makes group 1-2)
- group these two together (makes group 2-1)
- duplicate that (makes group 2-2) and group it (makes group 1-3)
that gives you the following hierarchy:

Code: Select all

                        + group 1-1- [cube 1-1, cube 2-1, cube 3-1, cube 4-1]
           + group 2-1 —|
           |            + group 1-2- [cube 1-2, cube 2-2, cube 3-2, cube 4-2]
group 3-1 —|
           |            + group 1-3- [cube 1-3, cube 2-3, cube 3-3, cube 4-3]
           + group 2-2 —|
                        + group 1-4- [cube 1-4, cube 2-4, cube 3-4, cube 4-4]

All cubes are in the same level of hierarchy, each within 3 groups, so the hue for depth isn't helpful. If you click any of them all get selected with the same color as it stands right now.

Now if you used brightness for hierarchical group closeness as well, If I clicked cube 1-1:
- The code would find what the cube's first group is (group 1-1), which would make it and all cubes in group 1-1 normal colored.
- Group 1-2 is two steps away in the hierarchy( you need to go back into 2-1 to get to 1-2), so it should be two steps darker in brightness (the steps are ofcourse an arbitrary difference. it has to be large enough to see, but small enough to allow for multiple steps to be displayed.
- Group 1-3 and 1-4 are each 4 steps away from group 1-1, so they should appear 4 steps darker in brightness.

How useful this is in the editor will only be answered by play testing I fear, but I imagine it could be useful.
Perhaps to amplify the effect both saturation and value could be used for this.

[KingAl]

Haven't actually used the editor yet >_> but, from watching the recent map editor blog post, particularly making the roof for the building, I can think of one useful feature.

- CAD-style relative orientation. Which is a fancy schmancy way of saying: the ability to indicate that this side of an object should be flush with this side of another object, that this edge should be in contact with this edge, that this side should be on the same plane as this other side or edge, etc. This exists to some extent with the 'snap' style tiling already.

Just a thought.

[Johannes]

Hmm, I'd like that too. Especially since the snapping doesn't seem to work well half the time, both in rotation and translation if you move the object around a bit in snap mode it will become very inaccurate.

[Mango]

This is more of an efficiency issue. When I duplicated the building setup a few times from alpha 11, it promptly slowed down my computer. I took a look under, and found there are a lot of textures in places that will never be seen in-game. I have dabbled in mapping for Quake 3 based games, and there is a texture called 'caulk' that is simply not drawn in game. It is necessary to apply this to most surfaces that won't be viewed in order to keep the map running as smoothly as possible. Looking at the editor, it seems this could be problematic, however this feature would be a must for even a small village setup to run smoothly.

[Mykei]

This is more of an efficiency issue. When I duplicated the building setup a few times from alpha 11, it promptly slowed down my computer. I took a look under, and found there are a lot of textures in places that will never be seen in-game. I have dabbled in mapping for Quake 3 based games, and there is a texture called 'caulk' that is simply not drawn in game. It is necessary to apply this to most surfaces that won't be viewed in order to keep the map running as smoothly as possible. Looking at the editor, it seems this could be problematic, however this feature would be a must for even a small village setup to run smoothly.

That's because Quake 3 is brush based mapping, you can't apply a nodraw texture to a model, that's why multiple textures on one model should be supported so we can model a whole house in our 3d application and optimize it there.

Now that I think about it, why not have brushes and models?

[Johannes]

This is more of an efficiency issue. When I duplicated the building setup a few times from alpha 11, it promptly slowed down my computer. I took a look under, and found there are a lot of textures in places that will never be seen in-game. I have dabbled in mapping for Quake 3 based games, and there is a texture called 'caulk' that is simply not drawn in game. It is necessary to apply this to most surfaces that won't be viewed in order to keep the map running as smoothly as possible. Looking at the editor, it seems this could be problematic, however this feature would be a must for even a small village setup to run smoothly.

This still being an early alpha, with the engine nowhere near fully implemented, I doubt optimization like that is on the top of the list, especially since it works, just causes a bit of slowdown with hundreds of models.

Lots of optimization will follow, and I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to automate such a procedure where it can automatically detect when objects have been snapped and are too close for you to be able to see what's between them.

[Ozymandias]

I just wanted to put up an idea I had yesterday.

I watched the level editor video and noticed that Phillip, despite being 'just that good' (haha) had some trouble keeping some of the objects in perfect alignment and scale to the rest of the objects. I was thinking maybe you could either put down a 'building marker' or designate a piece that all the objects you manipulate will be based off of. For example, if you have a block of a certain size, you designate it as a building block and then every block you use the snap tool with while you have that block selected will rotate at 45 degree angles, move/scale half the width/length/height per movement etc. that way everything that you make will be perfectly aligned to each other.

I noticed some parts, for example putting the staircase in and the roof tiles, gave him a bit of difficulty. Even when he was finished with the roof it was kind of lopsided. I know he was just making a quick example, but it would be convenient to work at that speed (not 10x =/ ) and still get a building that doesn't look sloppily put together (and if you're going to that sort of look you can just do it freehand like Phillip did)

I sort of have OCD and when things aren't aligned just right I will go nuts and try to fix it until it's just right, and if the object snaps to where it would logically fit automatically that would just be grand.

[Johannes]

The snap feature (if it were working correctly, which it's -not- at the moment) is supposed to automatically snap in sizes that are based on the object you are moving so once it is fixed it will do just what you described. the same goes for rotation snapping btw.

Also, if Aubrey had been doing this, it would have been different. Sorry Phillip ;P

[Phillip]

Sorry to have neglected this thread for so long. It is really awesome to be getting all these suggestions . I'll definitely try to consider each one, both here and elsewhere in the forums, blog, trac, etc. Often times, certain suggestions don't fit into my immediate development schedule, so I might not be ready to address them for weeks or months. But I just wanted to let you guys know that this does not mean they are not read and appreciated .

Okay, here are some initial thoughts and responses:

1. Using jump (default space) and crouch (default shift) to move the editor camera up and down respectively.

Just added!

3. Some kind of a model preview. A possible solution could be like resource browser used in Garry's mod

This would be cool. We'll probably be adding UI stuff like this more toward the end of development. Of course it's good to think about it now as well .

6. When objects are grouped together they should rotate and scale around their averaged center. not independently as if they were not grouped.

Yep, yep. As I know you've noticed, this is in now. (Bonus detail: you can still do the old style multi-object rotation and scaling if you just don't group the items.)

2) Instead of a green box around a selected object, the object should have a light texture over it to show it's selected, just like farcry2's map editor. With lots of objects close together it's hard to see what is selected and what isn't.

A great suggestion. Your comment motivated me to implement the glowing effect you may have noticed in recent alphas.

3) A 'List' or 'browser' of current objects in the map.

This is in the works, but it's on hold until we finish basic animation and fighting.

4) Precise in-game movement, rotating and scaling

An inspector/control widget is also on my list .

I've had these ideas in my head for quite a while but was reluctant to make a post about it in-case the wolfire team thought they were stupid or something.

No no, your suggestions were very good, I think! And please don't hold back "stupid" suggestions either. Sometimes those are the best.

One more thing I'd like to add... you mentioned selected objects getting a light texture over it. maybe objects you hover over could get a similar texture, because I tried to select a pillar and it selected the object behind it for some reason.

That could be cool. Right now there's a bug that's causing some items to be missed when you try to select them. We'll eventually fix the bug, but the graphical effect you mention might still be fun.

CAD-style relative orientation.

This is on my list of cool stuff to add if we have time. That is, it's a feature that would be super cool but probably non-essential. I think CAD style snaps would be essential if we were making a modern urban game with precise architecture. But on the Overgrowth world, most things don't need to be as precise, since most assets are rocks, vegetation, ruins, and medieval houses.

Hmm, I'd like that too. Especially since the snapping doesn't seem to work well half the time, both in rotation and translation if you move the object around a bit in snap mode it will become very inaccurate.

Yeah, at least those basic snaps will be fixed.

This is more of an efficiency issue. When I duplicated the building setup a few times from alpha 11, it promptly slowed down my computer. I took a look under, and found there are a lot of textures in places that will never be seen in-game. I have dabbled in mapping for Quake 3 based games, and there is a texture called 'caulk' that is simply not drawn in game. It is necessary to apply this to most surfaces that won't be viewed in order to keep the map running as smoothly as possible. Looking at the editor, it seems this could be problematic, however this feature would be a must for even a small village setup to run smoothly.

'Caulk' seems like an interesting approach. I'll look into how Quake 3 does this. Optimizations are gradually coming in, but a lot of optimization will probably be late in development, as jo-shadow mentioned.

I sort of have OCD and when things aren't aligned just right I will go nuts and try to fix it until it's just right, and if the object snaps to where it would logically fit automatically that would just be grand.

Yeah, I feel your pain. I'm OCD about imprecision too . As I mentioned above, fancier snapping will probably be relegated to "cool but non-essential stuff" but I'll see what I can do.

Also, if Aubrey had been doing this, it would have been different. Sorry Phillip ;P

True, Aubrey's hand-eye coordination is actually better than the maximum floating-point accuracy a computer can handle .


Okay, thanks again for all these suggestions! I know I missed a few; I'll get to those later. Please keep sending these in! They are very helpful.