How stealth-based do you think the gameplay should be? Do you want the new shadows to have a significant effect? What did you like about the Lugaru stealth system? And so forth.
Discuss?
Stealth
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TheBigCheese
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Re: Stealth
I think this is an important topic for the gameplay design.
While Lugaru had stealth in it, the system seemed to much like a sidenote. Overgrowth needs to either remove it, or utilize it fully. If something can be just as easily accomplished by just barging through as by stealth, then it's useless.
The levels would also have to revolve more around stealth. If the devs decide to use a similar level layout as the original (open spaces, as opposed to large cities) then I don't think stealth should be implemented, as it would detract from the action-based gameplay that Overgrowth is based around.
While Lugaru had stealth in it, the system seemed to much like a sidenote. Overgrowth needs to either remove it, or utilize it fully. If something can be just as easily accomplished by just barging through as by stealth, then it's useless.
The levels would also have to revolve more around stealth. If the devs decide to use a similar level layout as the original (open spaces, as opposed to large cities) then I don't think stealth should be implemented, as it would detract from the action-based gameplay that Overgrowth is based around.
Re: Stealth
I think Foothold shows that OG can easily support cites/buildings
So maybe stealth will be more viable then ever.
Also, Lugaru had quite a bit of stealth in it, especially at the earlier levels. Later on, not so much. But Lugaru barely even had a 'campaign' in it all all; OG will hopefully come better equipped to utilize the whole shebang.
So maybe stealth will be more viable then ever.
Also, Lugaru had quite a bit of stealth in it, especially at the earlier levels. Later on, not so much. But Lugaru barely even had a 'campaign' in it all all; OG will hopefully come better equipped to utilize the whole shebang.
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TheBigCheese
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Re: Stealth
While cities are possible, the current editor and style I think that the devs are going for doesn't include navigating cities, unless it's by rooftop. Especially with the Lugaru's movement system, which doesn't cater very well to precise city movements.
Re: Stealth
Stealth has been addressed here and there in several previous blog posts and forum discussions.
From what we know wolfire will likely attempt to make stealthy gameplay as viable an option as going in with full armor and swords-a-blazing. I myself prefer the stealth aspect. be sure to check out this recent forum discussion, notably the graph he provides concerning stealth vs brutality. I think that shows one excellent way the player might be able to have their choices shape the gameplay.
From what we know wolfire will likely attempt to make stealthy gameplay as viable an option as going in with full armor and swords-a-blazing. I myself prefer the stealth aspect. be sure to check out this recent forum discussion, notably the graph he provides concerning stealth vs brutality. I think that shows one excellent way the player might be able to have their choices shape the gameplay.
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TheBigCheese
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Re: Stealth
It doesn't mean that stealth isn't fun, but it keeps it from being a good strategy.Zhukov wrote:Disagree.TheBigCheese wrote:If something can be just as easily accomplished by just barging through as by stealth, then it's useless.
In my humble opinion, stealth for its own sake can be fun.
I'm a big fan of stealth based game-play. It's just going to be hard to balance both the stealth and brawler aspects of the game.
Advanced AI will probably make it much more viable to use stealth, so that they don't automatically notice you if you walk up behind them.
Re: Stealth
I think my main (read: only) problem with the Lugaru stealth was how slow you went when you were creeping compared to how fast the enemies walked. I would chase them around a cube five times and eventually just yell "**** it!" and leg cannon them into a tree. Every single attempt at stealth ended this way, except in the Raider Camp level, where there were tactics involved in the stealth. So, slower patrol-walk next time?
Anyway, that brings me to my second point-o'-post. I think there should be more use of alternative poses (sitting, sleeping, etc.) instead of having all enemies patrolling. Even in the original Lugaru system, it makes stealth more viable because not all the enemies are on a sugar rush all the time, and it provides more of an opportunity for "Batman moments."
Anyway, that brings me to my second point-o'-post. I think there should be more use of alternative poses (sitting, sleeping, etc.) instead of having all enemies patrolling. Even in the original Lugaru system, it makes stealth more viable because not all the enemies are on a sugar rush all the time, and it provides more of an opportunity for "Batman moments."
Be advised that, in Lugaru, rolling is as silent as creeping. It's also a lot faster.Xerxes713 wrote:I think my main (read: only) problem with the Lugaru stealth was how slow you went when you were creeping compared to how fast the enemies walked. I would chase them around a cube five times and eventually just yell "**** it!" and leg cannon them into a tree.
Re:
That's true, but I think it's also one of the weaknesses of Lugaru's stealth system. I wouldn't mind a system where you move in short spurts, "from shadow to shadow", but rolling without making any sound is a bit far-fetched.Zhukov wrote:Be advised that, in Lugaru, rolling is as silent as creeping. It's also a lot faster.
Re: Stealth
I think the climbing system will have great benefits for stealth gameplay. I do hope that light levels will be used instead of distance to determine if an enemy sees you.
Re: Stealth
A good combat system, along with a good plattforming system, along with a good stealth system make for the perfect game. 
As easy as that.
Although not a exceptional game (in all three regards), I will give an example: Prince of Persia The Two Thrones.
There is a room full of enemies. You can just go in and beat the hell out of them using the game's combo system. Or you can try the stealth kill method. BUT to get into position for a stealth kill, the game sometimes asks of you to do some acrobatic jumps (usually above your enemy) to get behind them. You can just surprise your first victim and dispatch him in front of his friends, then take them on using normal combat. Or you can even wait until the victim is alone and disappear again, going after the next one. (since the enemies don't leave bodies in PoP it's not an issue).
That's an example how you can successfully merge these three styles of gameplay in the same situation.
I want great combat, stealth and plattforming and all three not only being great on their own but also being "chainable".
Go to it Wolfire.
As easy as that.
Although not a exceptional game (in all three regards), I will give an example: Prince of Persia The Two Thrones.
There is a room full of enemies. You can just go in and beat the hell out of them using the game's combo system. Or you can try the stealth kill method. BUT to get into position for a stealth kill, the game sometimes asks of you to do some acrobatic jumps (usually above your enemy) to get behind them. You can just surprise your first victim and dispatch him in front of his friends, then take them on using normal combat. Or you can even wait until the victim is alone and disappear again, going after the next one. (since the enemies don't leave bodies in PoP it's not an issue).
That's an example how you can successfully merge these three styles of gameplay in the same situation.
I want great combat, stealth and plattforming and all three not only being great on their own but also being "chainable".
Go to it Wolfire.
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Count Roland
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Re: Stealth
you could also do multiple stealth kills, if you jump down from high up then they make you push different buttons to jump between the enemies.
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pwnasaurus
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Re: Stealth
stealth is most fun because of the dynamics. its all quite when suddenly he's dead. they should make stealth a good option. even if you can make it through the level fists ablaze then stealth could get you more points, or even bonuses (like powerups, not very likely though).
Re: Stealth
NO!!! NEVER FALL INTO THAT TRAP WOLFIRE!!!
Stealth has to be a good, fun option. But never, ever reward the player this way.
Another example:
Splinter Cell 3. The series was always solid, the first was nearly perfect, second was okay, third was either awesome or broken at the same time. (I ignore the stupid briefings in the third now and just focus on the gameplay).
SC3 introducted lots and lots of new gadgets, lots of new moves, a constant choice between killing and incapacitating your enemies (before, melee attacks or a dispatch while grabbing was always non-lethal), better weapon gameplay than ever before AND a scoring system.
Which was broken.
It discouraged players to use any of the new stuff.
Killing people always reduced the score. Lethal and non-lethal attacks are equally effective and easy to pull of but one reduces your score, the other does not, SO WHAT'S THE POINT? No difference in the outcome, you are always faced with a body to hide. Just fewer points if you press one button instead of the other.
The new weapon gameplay was great, they included a shotgun, new gadgets, ... ...but if you ever used it, you got a lower score. In one level, you have to traverse enemy - held territory, while your fellow soliders are retreating. There is no alarm system or any similar nasty thing. At least this level should allow players to shoot themselves through without score punishment but guess what, no.
The game NEVER wanted to you use your weapons, so what's the point of increasing the player's arsenal and giving him all this new tools and ways to kill?
( Splinter Cell 4 solved the problem, since you were a double agent at this point.
Killing scored you points with one side, non-lethal takeouts with the other. )
Stealth has to be fun. Stealth has to be an option. Stealth should even be the preferred way to solve a particular level every now and then. BUT NEVER EVER force it on the player.
If you argue now, that SplinterCell 3 didn't actually force it too, just keep one thing in mind.
The only thing more decisive than punishing a player with fewer points is to script his or her death.
Please, Wolfire.
Don't fall into that trap.
COMBAT and STEALTH must be equally fun and equally effective overall.
Create situations were one is the better way, or the other is very very hard. But never ever make it impossible.
Stealth has to be a good, fun option. But never, ever reward the player this way.
Another example:
Splinter Cell 3. The series was always solid, the first was nearly perfect, second was okay, third was either awesome or broken at the same time. (I ignore the stupid briefings in the third now and just focus on the gameplay).
SC3 introducted lots and lots of new gadgets, lots of new moves, a constant choice between killing and incapacitating your enemies (before, melee attacks or a dispatch while grabbing was always non-lethal), better weapon gameplay than ever before AND a scoring system.
Which was broken.
It discouraged players to use any of the new stuff.
Killing people always reduced the score. Lethal and non-lethal attacks are equally effective and easy to pull of but one reduces your score, the other does not, SO WHAT'S THE POINT? No difference in the outcome, you are always faced with a body to hide. Just fewer points if you press one button instead of the other.
The new weapon gameplay was great, they included a shotgun, new gadgets, ... ...but if you ever used it, you got a lower score. In one level, you have to traverse enemy - held territory, while your fellow soliders are retreating. There is no alarm system or any similar nasty thing. At least this level should allow players to shoot themselves through without score punishment but guess what, no.
The game NEVER wanted to you use your weapons, so what's the point of increasing the player's arsenal and giving him all this new tools and ways to kill?
( Splinter Cell 4 solved the problem, since you were a double agent at this point.
Killing scored you points with one side, non-lethal takeouts with the other. )
Stealth has to be fun. Stealth has to be an option. Stealth should even be the preferred way to solve a particular level every now and then. BUT NEVER EVER force it on the player.
If you argue now, that SplinterCell 3 didn't actually force it too, just keep one thing in mind.
The only thing more decisive than punishing a player with fewer points is to script his or her death.
Please, Wolfire.
Don't fall into that trap.
COMBAT and STEALTH must be equally fun and equally effective overall.
Create situations were one is the better way, or the other is very very hard. But never ever make it impossible.