Why Games need to be Fun (now with more breasts)

A secret forum for people who preorder Overgrowth!
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Wilbefast
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Why Games need to be Fun (now with more breasts)

Post by Wilbefast » Tue May 12, 2009 3:08 pm

How does this apply to Overgrowth? Well, Overgrowth is a game... It just didn't seem random enough to be in randomness... bah - so ban me :twisted:

Vrav pointed me to Chris Crawford's "Dragon" speech a short while ago and, having watched it, I've been looking into Crawford's work, in particular his current "Storytron" project.
One thing that struck me is his declaration that games don't need to be fun: Crawford believes that trying to be fun hurts a game's potential to teach, to move the audience and otherwise to convey the author's ideas and feeling - while I agree with him on a frightening number of points I think he's missed the mark with this one, depending on exactly what he meant by fun.

You see, I believe that games are just like any other medium - they can be used to entertain, to educate and to influence in the same way as books or plays or films. However, in the same way as books or plays or films, they cannot do so without the audience's consent - you need to give them some reason to listen, so how you present is just as important as what you're presenting.
Let me give you an example: I have a lecturer at university who clearly knows his subject back to front but, unfortunately, he's a terrible speaker, dull as ditch water, and so it's literally impossible to stay focused for more than a couple of minutes before your mind starts to wander.
He has important information to convey, but he might as well have nothing to say at all because he's unable to engage the audience. Content without presentation is thus just as worthless as a presentation without content - a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

If you're a visually minded sort of person you can think of it as a sliding scale: on one end of the spectrum we have meaningless entertainment - pornography and shoot em' ups - while at the other end we have what could be called "elitist art", which has to be suffered to be enjoyed: One side has no message to spread and the other has no audience to hear its message.
Here's a graph I made - I make a lot of graphs:

Image

My now dead grandfather's mantra was "moderation in all things" and I'm yet to find a situation where this doesn't apply - absolutes simply don't work because neither extreme is the "right answer"- it will always be the synthesis of the two that allows for progress. What I'm trying to say is: we should place ourselves in the middle of scale - be entertaining and yet still have some sort of message to convey. This is the basis of most comedians: in making fun of various issues they denounce, criticize and make suggestions - the humour is the sugar that makes the medicine go down, just as the fun in games is what could be used to make them a very powerful medium indeed.

I'm standing by my views that long posts are more readible if you boldify random part of them, and include breasts - anyway, below are a few links to widgets I've mentioned - what are your thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_04PLBdhqZ4&hl=fr
http://www.storytron.com

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Ozymandias
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Re: Why Games need to be Fun (now with more breasts)

Post by Ozymandias » Tue May 12, 2009 4:40 pm

Games need to be fun because if it wasn't it wouldn't be a game anymore. I'm assuming when you say 'game' you are not only referring to video games, but games in general. A child's toy that is supposed to teach the child the alphabet for example is fun for the child, yet gets its message across. If you just wrote the alphabet on a piece of paper and gave the kid both that and the game, which one do you think he would prefer to use?

Um, anyways, I agree with the whole medium thing, it applies to a lot more things as well.

I'm just going to stop now.

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Re: Why Games need to be Fun (now with more breasts)

Post by TheBigCheese » Tue May 12, 2009 7:44 pm

Well put. While I'm a fan of the whole "games as art" concept, I agree that games need to have some kind of entertainment in order to keep users coming back.

Plus, nice paint drawings.

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Jendraz
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Re: Why Games need to be Fun (now with more breasts)

Post by Jendraz » Tue May 12, 2009 8:11 pm

I love these random picture-graphs that people make.

http://xkcd.com/388/

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Richie Rabbit
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Re: Why Games need to be Fun (now with more breasts)

Post by Richie Rabbit » Tue May 12, 2009 8:50 pm

I'm sure overgrowth is going to be very entertaining it does have a whaleman in it.
But adding a whalewoman with massive breasts would make this game godly.

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Re: Why Games need to be Fun (now with more breasts)

Post by Wilbefast » Wed May 13, 2009 2:00 am

Thank god nobody wants to argue in favour of the artistic merits of pornography: my faith in humanity would have been dug up, tried and found guilty, poisoned, shot, beaten on the head with a dumbell and thrown into a river then saved only to be hung, drawn and quartered, burnt and then buried in soft peat.
Jendraz wrote:I love these random picture-graphs that people make.

http://xkcd.com/388/
Lol - good find, although I quite like grapefruit myself :P

I'm thinking of including a lot more graphs in my posts from now on - I'm working on a new style of drawing - harder to animation than 32x32 pixels but looks pretty good. It's all done in paint because I'm too retarded to learn how to use something like GIMP:

Image

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Re: Why Games need to be Fun (now with more breasts)

Post by Zantalos » Wed May 13, 2009 3:15 am

I have to agree, Chris Crawford is pretty cool and has a lot of nice ideas, but in my opinion, he is just not a good game developer, and he is crazy if he believes people will enjoy video games with no enjoyable game play but have a nice story or whatever like the Schindler's List (the example he uses in his book on game design, which is somewhat a nice read, but frustrating because he sees video games in a completely different light I don't agree with). He makes games that are un-fun, un-engaging, there's no character you can connect to, they just kind of give you a nice opinion on things that he believes in, kind of like a nice based-on-a-true story movie.

There are so many good games that are not just return to castle wolfenstein shoot-em ups. After playing games like Half-Life 2, Mass Effect, even Gears of War 2, I really have no idea why Chris Crawford is so disgusted by today's games, he's jut crazy. He spent like 15 years making the beta to Storytron and all it has produced is a text-based balance of power re-make, what a joke. *shakes head*

It would be sweet if David could make some kind of message to Overgrowth but... man, I've just got myself so frustrated with Crawford right now, imo adding some kind of message to Overgrowth would be at best, sprinkles on an already frosted cake. I just want to kick ass, and follow a nice story with interesting characters, teaching me what needs to be done to ecologically save the planet or whatever, I'm sure David could think of something, but meh, not a lot riding on it for me.

Btw, none of your graphs make sense to me.

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Wilbefast
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Re: Why Games need to be Fun (now with more breasts)

Post by Wilbefast » Wed May 13, 2009 3:33 am

Zantalos wrote:I have to agree, Chris Crawford is pretty cool and has a lot of nice ideas, but in my opinion, he is just not a good game developer, and he is crazy if he believes people will enjoy video games with no enjoyable game play but have a nice story or whatever like the Schindler's List
He uses the example of Macbeth, saying that it's not a "fun" play - yeah, okay, but since there's action and intrigue it's still the sort of thing that people will want to watch - if his plays hadn't been enjoyable Shakespeare would not be immortalised today, because he never would have emmerged into the public eye.
Zantalos wrote:Btw, none of your graphs make sense to me.
There has to be a balance between entertainment and meaning - on the extremes we have meaningless entertainment and modern art - somewhere in the middle we have a pretty picture which, at the same time, says something about "Woman".

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Re: Why Games need to be Fun (now with more breasts)

Post by Chainsaw man » Wed May 13, 2009 5:41 am

I dont know... making a good game is allot more than just a plot linked together by Arenas and Passage ways. We have come far from the days of Doom where writing was printed on the screen to motivate you to find the exit while leaving a masive trail of destructon.

Today games are allot more to us. We walk into a game today asking "What would life be like if I were..." and in turn getting a taste of what it would be like to be a ...

Some people I how ever know they just want to unwiend and get there mind off troubles.
These people are lazy gamers often because they have spent all there waking hours being active bussy people in the rat race. A Thick plotted story would be horrible for them, too much head stuff. Also games like that tend to be 2/3rds story, when they just want to get down to blowing stuff up.

There is a place for all things. We need Porn and we need the Masters. We need William Shakespeare's to make good storys, and we need Uwe Boll's for our share of Slimey Dog action. The Point is there here for two different reasons. The Ballance is in merging the two, but understanding what they are for, and where undesierables may become too thick. A Creaton is a creaton, and its our right as humans to create.

The Moro: A Moro is a choclate bar
Image
But the Moral: Is that a Game is entirely what you make it, and what ever the makers make it. Take a game for what it is... If you dont find it fun, dont play it, take it back to the shop.

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Re: Why Games need to be Fun (now with more breasts)

Post by nutcracker » Wed May 13, 2009 5:51 am

Its already been decided that there will be no genitalia, they clone themselves XD

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Wilbefast
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Re: Why Games need to be Fun (now with more breasts)

Post by Wilbefast » Wed May 13, 2009 6:25 am

Must - resist - urge - to - sing - "Smut"...
Chainsaw man wrote:A Thick plotted story would be horrible for them, too much head stuff. Also games like that tend to be 2/3rds story, when they just want to get down to blowing stuff up (...) There is a place for all things. We need Porn and we need the Masters. We need William Shakespeare's to make good storys, and we need Uwe Boll's for our share of Slimey Dog action.
At the time, Shakespeare's plays were popular culture - so much so that many saw them as crude and vulgar. The only reason it's become so elitist these days is because the language is difficult to decipher if you're unused to it. If you can get past the language they're far from being dried up philosophical musing - there's a good helping of humour and personality, not to mention blood and guts, in all of them. Don't take my word for it though, I am a fan after all...

My point is that a good game/film/play should be entertaining and have a message which the people who just want entertainment can ignore without it hurting their experience. Films like 28 Days Later or Gladiator had something to say and yet didn't let it get in their way of their being fun to watch - Die Hard 4 on the other hand was certainly fun to watch but didn't have anything to say at all - on the third hand (yes, I have 3 hands) I could say that Syriana is not a film for people who don't care about America's Foreign Policy - it's not would I'd call a "romp" of any sort :P
Last edited by Wilbefast on Wed May 13, 2009 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Zhukov » Wed May 13, 2009 6:50 am

The original George A. Romero zombie movies* are good examples of entertaining films which still have a point to make.
Unfortunately the two recent ones got the balance a bit wrong. Too much of The Point and not enough zombie havoc.


*They being, in chronological order, Night of the Living Dead, Dawn of the Dead, Day of the Dead, Land of the Dead and Diary of the Dead.

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Re: Why Games need to be Fun (now with more breasts)

Post by Skofo » Thu May 14, 2009 4:32 am

I agree, games need more boobs.

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Re: Why Games need to be Fun (now with more breasts)

Post by Wilbefast » Thu May 14, 2009 4:34 am

Skofo wrote:I agree, games need more boobs.
I think you may have missed the point just a tad :?

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Post by Zhukov » Thu May 14, 2009 4:51 am

Skofo wrote:I agree, games need more boobs.
No, they do not. One of these days I would really like to play a game with female characters who don't look like stripper/clown hybrids.

(Anyway, I thought you were inclined towards balls rather then breasts...?)

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