The Trouble with Randomised Loot Drops

[Wilbefast]

I was talking to John about that Secret Internet Thing (more secret even than the Secret Preorder Forum) and we somehow hit upon the question of loot in Overgrowth. I'm sure we all agree that if we see an enemy with a cool weapon then we want to be able to confiscate it, and it would be nice to get some interesting new armour over the course of the game (early blog posts suggested it would be modular by the way), especially if how you look had some sort of impact on how you were seen by NPCs. Anyway, loot is certainly going to be making some sort appearance in Overgrowth, the real question is how?
Many games have dealt with the problem by using random loot drops, but in my opinion these are a very bad idea for something like Overgrowth.

In Lugaru, when it came to weapons it was very much a case of, as my Taekwondo instructor would say, there being a "weapon involved", but who it belonged to was a matter of who was better at keeping hold of it over the course of the fight - this fact alone makes the idea of collecting loot a more interesting problem: part of what makes Turner awesome is that he travels light and on his own - he doesn't take an arsenal or an army along with him but uses his enemy's weapons and numbers against them (otherwise known as "rabbit ten pin bowling").

In addition, Lugaru was a game based entirely around player skill - the outcome of a fight was not dependent on luck or your character's stats, and when it comes to game theory the player had a perfect understanding of the situation they were facing - their liabilities, strengths and weakness as well as those of their enemies.
The real trouble with random drops is that they're, well, random. That means whether you get a cool item or not is either a matter of luck or a matter of perseverance - in other words grinding - if there is an unlimited supply of enemies. Skill can go hang overall, and it's less a matter of saying to yourself "that cat has a cool looking sword - I think I'll go mug him" and more a matter of saying to yourself "I'll mug every random on this mountainside until a cool sword magically bursts out of someone's rear."



What are your thoughts?

My view is, if there is loot accumulation it should be kept to a minimum, say, a dagger or throwing weapon plus one main weapon - Turner wouldn't want to be encumbered during his travels so would only probably own one or two things other than the clothes on his back.
Over the course of the game you'd be exposed to a variety of different weapons from different cultures and eventually you'd pick one that you really liked - that and boss characters might have special weapons alone the lines of the "Green Destiny" that you could pick up - they wouldn't be that much more powerful than normal weapons but would make you feel bad-ass, especially if NPCs reacted to them and would enable you to customize "your" Turner.
Also, since you could take one with you you'd have to make a choice with no right answer, and choices are good.

[Glabbit]

That picture makes me go "Da-da-da-daaa!" in my head...

[Zhukov]

Hang on a second... are you implying the guys are actually considering having random loot in Overgrowth? If so, then I sure hope they change their minds.
I always assumed that it would work much like in Lugaru. If an enemy possesses an item, you can take that item. Simple, streamlined and slick.

Anyway I agree with prettymuch every point you made.

[Glabbit]

Hang on a second... are you implying the guys are actually considering having random loot in Overgrowth? If so, then I sure hope they change their minds.
I always assumed that it would work much like in Lugaru. If an enemy possesses an item, you can take that item. Simple, streamlined and slick.

Anyway I agree with prettymuch every point you made.

Oh, yes, on-topicness: I agree with Zhukov, too =p

[Wilbefast]

Hang on a second... are you implying the guys are actually considering having random loot in Overgrowth? If so, then I sure hope they change their minds.
I always assumed that it would work much like in Lugaru. If an enemy possesses an item, you can take that item. Simple, streamlined and slick.

Anyway I agree with prettymuch every point you made.

John said there would be "loot" but that's about it. They haven't decided on any system for aquiring it yet (early days) but when you think about it, any sort of collection minigame requires random drops - if everyone got the same stuff you couldn't show off your cool loot now would you? In essence, I'm against the idea of hoarding gear, mostly because of the ephemeral ownership in Lugaru - I guess starting each level without gear gave you a degree of freedom you don't have when you're hot-keying 8 different sets of equipment around the place.

The problem ultimately is with the loot itself - how can loot be included without it encumbering clean and clear game mechanics of Lugaru?

[Jendraz]

My view is, if there is loot accumulation it should be kept to a minimum, say, a dagger or throwing weapon plus one main weapon - Turner wouldn't want to be encumbered during his travels so would only probably own one or two things other than the clothes on his back.

I agree with this. I think how you carry equipment should be kept in the style of Lugaru. You are actually picking up the weapon and holstering it.
I love rpg's, but I do not want Overgrowth to become one. I would keep the same system of equipment from Lugaru with two changes:

-More individuality of weapons. I remember Aubrey messing around with weapons that are improvised/homemade. I loved that. Swords could all have the same properties in my mind, but I want them to look different. When you find one that looks cool you can hang on to it
-Retaining weapons across levels. This will attach the player to the weapons and the character. When you start with a blank slate each level, it's hard to get emotionally attached to the story, as the levels feel disconnected. This also ties in to my - wanting to keep the cool looking sword - example.

[Ozymandias]

I always figured that, just as you don't have randomly generated enemies in a level, the enemies that -are- in the level don't have randomly generated items.

It's all up to whoever makes the level. he places down a rabbit, gives him a style of fur, clothes, maybe some armor in places, then he gives him a weapon, not just click the 'random enemy creator' button and places down a spawn point that creates a random enemy every time the map is played (though that might be an interesting idea to add variety if you had some control over it...)

A better example I guess would be it wouldn't be a random level generator. You don't play through a campaign to see random blocks and objects strewn about everywhere with random enemies, it's usually the same sort of thing each time, with the same enemies, just like in Lugaru.

I sort of guess that when you guys talk about loot you mean grabbing stuff the enemy is carrying off of them, not 5 gold pieces, cheese cloth +2, and a golden frying pan of disembowelment. =/

EDIT: To your picture, will. "Shine get!"

[Chainsaw man]

Asking of Loot I am asuming bad ass weapons.
I could understand getting beat up by some one on Easy mode theres an increse drop chance of something like healing herbs/healing potions when you kill that person, How ever, expendable weapons make for a much more interesting. I can understand fighting boss and obtaining new equiptment that is specal, but remeber specal equiptment will alter the game drasticly, when you get epics it sould be for a task well done, and require allot of blood and tears, it should also be obtained towards the end of the Story, and there should be a hard battle to win, the weapon makes it substantualy easyer. the sword in Lugaru portrayed the End of the game well due to its power to two shot regular wolves.

[Richie Rabbit]

Randomised Loot Drops-Weapons-I don't like that idea very much unless the weapons are REALLY fun to use.
Randomised Loot Drops-Currency or Items that can be used for map editor mode- I'd be happy with that.
Randomised Loot Drops-Carrots-Used for health or currency when playing as a rabbit?

[Ozymandias]

Nice picture o_o

I don't think that powerful weapons should be in random drops. All randomized stuff should be common items at least. That way in order to get the really good stuff you have to do something amazing not do the same thing 5 million times until you get something good.

[Richie Rabbit]

I don't really like the idea of weapons poping outta the butts of someone you just killed really..I think that would make beating the game somewhat easy unless it was used as some sort of handicap for easy mode players

[Ozymandias]

I mean when the enemy spawns it would put a random weapon on them. They would, of course, use this weapon against you and you'd have to fight to get it... or perhaps it would be a weapon they have sheathed so you have to kill them to take it. (unless certain grab moves allow you to take knives and swords from other people's holsters)

[Richie Rabbit]

Enemy's are going to spawn in overgrowth? They are not going to just be there on the map like in lugaru? O.O Unless you mean when they spawn once you start a map or something..

[Ozymandias]

Ya that's what I meant XD lol

[tokage]

Randomised loot drops?
I think that is a bad idea for Overgrowth. It would take away too much of the spirit of Lugaru, I think.
At least when it comes to enemies dropping and having weapons of different strength. The only way I could imagine random loot is, when the things that drop randomly have no significant impact on game play. No strong rare weapons, no overpowerful armor, no healing equipement like bandages (if a healing system will be implemented) should drop randomly.
The only thing I could imagine are clothes and other accessories, that customize Turner's appearance. Like the bandana your enemy has? Why don't grab it. And that rat necklace sure matches the current armor.

A little bit unrelated maybe, but somehow I am reminded of the loot system of MechWarrior 3. Jeff mentioned a loot screen at the end of the mission, where you can decide what to take, in the inventory thread. In MechWarrior it was similar. What you could take was determined by what of your enemies was not damaged beyond use and depended also on difficulty level, I guess.