The SPF, speculation and dissent

[dra6o0n]

I. Am. A. Gamer.
I look up games on the internet, many games that I will not bother to track every single news overgrowth pops up.

Mmorpgs, Pc games, Console games, I track them for pure interest. Because not doing so and not playing games will bore the hell out of me.

[Renegade_Turner]

Then you obviously didn't search very thoroughly, considering you were monitoring both Overgrowth and NS2, and decided to make a silly comment on how long the game is taking when you clearly haven't even been paying close enough attention to the blog to see what they've been up to.

If you had, you would have seen the blog post about the free copy of NS2 for pre-orderers.

There is nothing here you can refute. You can only accept your misconception.

[Wilbefast]

I will not bother to track every single news overgrowth pops up.

So... you missed out on a free game, which is unfortunate. We're sorry for your troubles - please let's not get into a fight about this

But if I have to wait any longer, I might consider a refund and switch to Natural Selection 2

The points made here actually apply to NS2 to a degree - there hasn't really been any gameplay that end either. Then again, it is an FPS, with mechanics as tried and true as the wheelbarrow. Overgrowth, meanwhile, is an experimental hovercraft of a game, and sometimes it seems like rather a lot of time is spent working on the paintjob considering that the thing can't actually take-off yet.

if you feel there is a better way of developing this game you could, perhaps, make your own game where you can spend all the time you want on gameplay and no time on groundwork, and the finished product will, most likely, be incomplete.

What do you mean by "groundwork"? Because if you mean the engine, you're missing the point. The question here is whether you need shaders, shadows and ambient occlusion before you've done any work on the gameplay.

[dra6o0n]

Unfortunately, the terms gamers can be quite overused because there are too many generalization of them. But at this point, for me personally, I'm more likely to try out the new free mmos, or buying the starcraft 2 that's coming out this year.

All these other things I did, like preordering overgrowth, was because I had some money left over and thought "Oh well, I might as well drop a bit of cash into paypal so I can get it to try another new game in the case that I get bored again"...

Unfortunately, I'm also in college and starting to see a cash strain from eating outside...
I might end up being forced to actually get a part time job, of which I have zero experience in and will likely end up nasty.

If you really want to label this, I'd call it "Bored Gamer Spenders" or BGS, but someone might crack a joke and use "Bored Gamer Syndrome"...

[capn.lee]

pro tip: if you need money, don't spend your refunded preorder on another game.

in all seriousness, it looks like you can still claim on that NS2 order, assuming you bought overgrowth before the pack was released
http://www.wolfire.com/pack?og=1

[Jeff]

Indeed! dra6o0n, if you preordered Overgrowth before the preorder pack, it's not too late to claim it. We left it running for situations exactly like this.

Just click http://www.wolfire.com/pack?og=1

[Wilbefast]

if I have to wait any longer, I might consider a refund and switch to Natural Selection 2

I forgot to mention: whether you put your socks or your trousers on first, it'll still take the same amount of time to get dressed
So yeah - considering that a modern video-game takes years to build, even if the engine isn't built from scratch by only 4 people, I think the guys are doing fairly well.

By the way, if you do put your socks on first... I really don't think we can be friends

[dra6o0n]

Indeed! dra6o0n, if you preordered Overgrowth before the preorder pack, it's not too late to claim it. We left it running for situations exactly like this.

Just click http://www.wolfire.com/pack?og=1

Jan. 7, 2010 13:14:02 PST
Transaction ID: 5JJ386730K9325815

Talked with john, and that promotion was on Jan 5th... So I was two days short because my paypal made me wait a week from transferring funds...

This incident makes me realize that even... *cringes* credit cards... Can be useful at times...

I sure "love" (hate) paypal now...

if I have to wait any longer, I might consider a refund and switch to Natural Selection 2

I forgot to mention: whether you put your socks or your trousers on first, it'll still take the same amount of time to get dressed
So yeah - considering that a modern video-game takes years to build, even if the engine isn't built from scratch by only 4 people, I think the guys are doing fairly well.

By the way, if you do put your socks on first... I really don't think we can be friends

The time frame of which a video game is built is "dramatically" getting shorter because of the evolving technological advances we have every year. There IS a minimum time frame though.

It's not that I'm lacking money, it's that I'm spending a bit too much and too often these years...

[Wilbefast]

It's almost the 1st of April again, which just made me think that we haven't seen a Diablo 3 update for about 12 months, when they did an April Fools joke.
So, on the one hand, I really don't think games are being made any more quickly than before, and on the other, I'm shocked by how long a mammoth company like Blizzard can do nothing at all while still being widely hyped.

----

Just to jump back a few posts here: funny how GraGrin seems more capable of conveying my point of view than I am - maybe I should hire him as a translator or something. Being around such people makes me feel terribly incompetent though...

One thing I'd add - also so as to stop being a James and actually properly reply to zik (just because someone flames you doesn't mean they don't deserve a valid response) - I'd be inclined to think that doing things the other way round would make more sense and so, if my opinion actually mattered - which it doesn't - I'd say "yes": stop working on animation and get some gameplay done, even if it's really ugly.
I'm very hesitant to make a clear suggestion though, in case it's actually followed. I'd much prefer if Jeff and the others did things their own way round rather than feeling that they have to crave to fan suggestions, and have them grudgingly change tack. Especially since, as I mentioned before, I'm just heckling from the sidelines and there are probably a number of variables I've left out of my calculations.
The team have only 4 pairs of eyes though, and can't think of everything: I wanted to bring this point to their attention, it case it hadn't been considered, but I'd be perfectly happy if my views were found wanting. Probably more happy than if they weren't.

In other news, I'm working on a new game at the moment, following my own advice. When I give up, I'll be sure to write a ridiculously long blog post about why it didn't work out

[tokage]

I'd say "yes": stop working on animation and get some gameplay done, even if it's really ugly.

Ok, Wil, actually I could understand it, when you said they shouldn't care so much about shadows and other fancy graphic features and instead focus on core game play. But what you said now makes no sense at all. Animations and the physics involved with actual combat are the next step towards core game play, what else should they do?

[John]

Shun the non-believers shun!

Wilbefast it seems like you'd rather have us get in a personal argument with you than focus on the game but you've thrown the gauntlet and I'm not directly coding OG anyway and I've been neglecting the forums a little recently, so let's dance. Also I'm only putting so much time into this Wilbefast because you're one of my favorites.

We have tons of ideas about how the combat system should work and now that the core foundation of our engine has been assembled, many of them are now possible. Do we want to make grandiose promises about how it's going to work before we can see it in-engine and confirm that it's fun? Not really. We'd rather just show you directly when stuff is ready so you can see it for yourself. Otherwise we're likely to have a series of speculative arguments about nothing.

The entangling fact remains that every piece will be completely dependent upon every other piece of the gameplay. Say we launch a blog post today that says "Hey guys throwing knives will 100% for sure be in the game." Wilbefast you yourself have expressed your approval of my Game Theory Applied to Game Design post. To try to avoid boring dominant strategies we will have to do a lot of iterative balancing. But then what if we find out that our throwing knife is either overpowered and too deadly or when we try to tone it down it becomes an ineffective clown weapon with no elegant middleground. Maybe we'll want to take it out and people will be sad. For this reason, gameplay is an area where we'd really prefer to show not tell. Even though the ensuing academic arguments about game design will be really exciting, might as well ground them in some reality first.

Additionally there is the potential paradox I mentioned in previous posts about open development and polish and open development and spoiling the story. If I were you guys I would want to know as much as possible about the game every step of the way but I also honestly think this would take some of the fun out of the final game. It would be like watching 40 hours of behind the scene production footage for a movie right before seeing the movie itself. So far we've just been showing you all the concrete stuff we've got but I am actually very curious about this, do you think that knowing about every fighting move and weapon in the game before you play the game will give you the best experience?

Regarding prototyping I would assert that Lugaru does indeed serve as an awesome prototype. I don't see why the claim that we can recapture the same spirit but make it better by adding an extra attack button and creating more characters and moves would be dubious. Keep in mind that even though we've only been working on Overgrowth for a year and a half, Aubrey and David had been brainstorming ideas for a Lugaru sequel for at least 2 years before that.

Regarding making the engine before the gameplay: The foundation first approach has merits. Obviously physics is not an engine feature that is independent of gameplay (especially for a physics based fighting game) so getting the physics in first makes sense (and we need the animation editor too). However, it sounds like you are arguing that graphics and gameplay ARE independent. I would argue that is false. The detail of your graphics determine what you can convey to the gamer. Maybe you're approaching a stranger in the distance. Initially his profile might suggest to you that he is a rabbit, then as you get closer you can see what tribe he's with from his clothing and that he has a sheathed sword. Then as you get closer you can see one of his ears is missing, perhaps he can't hear as well on that side, perhaps he is a bad fighter, or perhaps he is a well-seasoned veteran fighter. Then as you get closer you can see the badge on his chest which is a symbol reserved for only the greatest of warriors. Then as you get closer you can see that he is smiling at you. Then as you get closer you can see that he is bleeding under his armor and and has blood stains on the corners of his mouth.

The point is that suddenly just the act of approaching a character is quite interesting, very unlike approaching a block dude in GLFighters or Black Shades or even Lugaru (though it was definitely important for me to survey how many rabbits and wolves were on the map and what they were carrying in Lugaru levels), approaching a stranger becomes its own immersive identification mini-game. I can't promise that all these levels of detail will be leveraged all the time but they could definitely be quite useful and are now possible with our current tech.

But what about shaders and post processing effects you say? I say they are fair game too. Perhaps if you had approached your enemy while looking into the sun, lens flare, bloom and sun-based shaders would have made it harder to see these details. In this way David has a provided us a full vocabulary of techniques that we know are feasible which will likely help us accent our vision in subtle ways. I agree that indie games often don't NEED cutting edge graphics but I don't think they should be demonized either.

Also to those who question whether or not David is THE MAN, I forgive you for this because you haven't know him since kindergarten and seen him make games since second grade like I have but I assure you he is THE MAN (you should still be able to tell from his later games). His design tours were a nice window into how he thinks about games. He eats sleeps and breathes game design: chews games up, breaks them into their components and spits them out. It's not just with respect to other people's games either. David holds his own projects to the same high standards, hence his meticulous attention to detail with everything he does.

In conclusion, while we are always open to feedback I'm not really prepared for to apologize for the fact that we've been working 14 hour days for 6-7 days a week for over a year now living off subway sandwiches to make you the best game we possibly can.

I feel like we're at the stage in Karate Kid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aYl7N0JPWs

Mr. Miyagi has been making him do all these chores. Wax the car, paint the house, sand the deck and he's just about to get fed up and then suddenly Mr. Miyagi starts attacking him and he realizes all the brutal work he's been is seriously paying off. Though in our case we are both Mr. Miyagi and doing all the work

Worry not, gameplay elements will be sneaking into the alphas soon (there isn't really any more non-gameplay stuff we could focus on even if we wanted to).

PS

Also wilbefast just to return fire I'm going to spread some dissent towards your freedom versus challenge post.

All games will feature a mixture of these two ingredients, though more often than not, one will be used to the exclusion of the other.

I found the statement above and your linear freedom versus challenge diagram showing them as opposing forces to be misleading. It really comes down to how you use freedom. If the player is struggling to survive on a lumpy solution space, you have to ask yourself, when you "add freedom" are you adding more intuitive ways for the player to succeed or traps that seem intuitive but cause the player to fail.

Increasing the freedom to fail adds challenge:
Sim City was easy unless you played on hard at which point a always found myself losing money without knowing why. The same was true with Sim City 3000 except the model was even more complicated so I had even more options I could implement but no clean feedback about what specifically was working or not working.

Monkey Island and Myst are similar. You have a lot of freedom for places you can go and things you can manipulate but there are very few (sometimes only one) "correct solutions" so at the end of the day you end up with the freedom to do tons of trial and error until something finally works.

Increasing the freedom to succeed removes challenge:
Scribblenauts might be the best example of a game where they intentionally wanted you to be able to succeed by writing virtually anything as a solution.

Fantastic Contraption is another good example and the pride players feel over creating unique solutions (which you clearly mentioned in your post) was what drove the viral spread of the game all over the internet (friends showing friends solutions).

Conclusion:
So even though you identified a lot of awesome interactions between freedom and challenge, I propose calling your post Freedom vs. Challenge was somewhat misleading. Giving the player more freedom can either make the game harder or easier depending on the context.

Alright my meager game design brain hurts now. Come bother me on live chat if you want.

Peace I'm out

[Endoperez]

Thanks for the long post! It was an interesting read. It's nice to know that you have lots of game design expertise on the team.

[Wilbefast]

I'll make my post look just as big as John's thanks to a liberal use of -

it seems like you'd rather have us get in a personal argument with you [about whether we're focusing enough on the game] than focus on the game

Ironic isn't it?

gameplay is an area where we'd really prefer to show not tell.

Makes sense.
edit: of course, you could always say "this may or may not actually make the cut - let us know what you think" in really big letters across the top

do you think that knowing about every fighting move and weapon in the game before you play the game will give you the best experience?

Not really

Regarding prototyping I would assert that Lugaru does indeed serve as an awesome prototype.

I have some screenshots to show you - cloak and dagger stuff though: I'll go on Meebo...

The detail of your graphics determine what you can convey to the gamer.

True - I think I argued a while ago that "Dwarf Fortress" had a level of complexity out of step with its interface's ability to convey information. This doesn't mean you have to add these things first though - the "identification minigame" is really the icing on the top of the cake.

indie games often don't NEED cutting edge graphics but I don't think they should be demonized either.

Agreed - I'm not demonising graphics, it's just... see above.
Then again one could argue that pretty graphics lead to a more pleasant working environment for the team, and so to increased productivity

Also to those who question whether or not David is THE MAN

There was never any doubt in my mind
In fact, this has all been an elaborate ruse to discover why David would do things this way round: I figured since he is THE MAN he must have a very good reason I'm not thinking of

I'm not really prepared to apologize for the fact that we've been working 14 hour days for 6-7 days a week for over a year now living off subway sandwiches to make you the best game we possibly can.

But I thought you liked subway!
What I wouldn't give to make games 14 hours a day 6-7 days a week

Giving the player more freedom can either make the game harder or easier depending on the context.

I remember you mentioned this when read the draft, but since I'd already written quite a bit I didn't want to go back and change everything
It did prompt me to write a runner-up to the post though:

In the first post I suggested that giving the player too much freedom kills the challenge, and vice-versa. However this is not always true. Most notably, if the player has no grasp of your game’s mechanics, giving them too much freedom will have the opposite effect: they won’t know what do to.

Not sure this covers all your counter-arguments though - does this mean I'll have to write yet another one
Oh God please no...

Come bother me on live chat if you want.

You know, I might just do that

[John]

Wilbefast as far as I'm concerned you have an awesome and shrewd sense for games and game design. Even when we take opposing views on an issue I must salute you sir. I know I got pretty long-winded there, but the truth is I definitely see where you're coming. As you said on the blog, it is about time to "make the damn game". Summer is around the corner and the beard will be getting hot and itchy if it's not shaved off soon.

Also let the record show that despite my nit-picking I think your freedom versus challenge post was fantastic (I actually hadn't seen the revised follow up to it).

This one is awesome too:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5861

So is this one:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6111

I could try to list all of them but there's too many. I find your observations combine a rare synergy of entertaining wit, practical insight and honesty. I know epic posts are a lot of work but they are definitely a treasure for anyone who encounters them. I sure hope you'll consider making us another gem for the blog someday if you can spare the time.

Carry on gentlemen.

[Renegade_Turner]

This is a joy to read. I'm not going to step into this due to my scant knowledge of game design, and I really don't want to feel like my penis is small compared to yours.

On another note, I shaved off my beard on Monday that had been growing for a few months. My girlfriend bitched. Moral: don't shave regardless of itchiness.

By the way, if you do put your socks on first... I really don't think we can be friends

This depends...am I wearing jeans? if so, skinny fit or boot cut? These are the questions one must ask themselves when making these kinds of decisions. If skinny fit, socks first. If boot cut, jeans first. This is also proportional to which is closer and, in fact, which I see first. The existence of company in the house is also a factor as most of the socks in my house are not actually in my bedroom, but are instead scattered throughout the house in various locations. Going down to locate the socks and put them on before putting on my pants would run the risk of seeming perverse in the eyes of our visitors.

Also, it's possible that it may be Summer and I may be wearing shorts. On such an occasion I may just wear shoes with no socks.