I want to learn to make characters

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Endoperez
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Re: I want to learn to make characters

Post by Endoperez » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:47 pm

charcoalrox wrote:I would like to say that sculptris will allow you to model and texture
I'm pretty sure you can't use only Sculptris to make game-ready models and textures.

You can make the high-poly model and texture that one, but for game characters, you need to have certain topology, a limited amount of polygons, and the unwrap needs to fit better and into smaller image. Sculptris (from what I know) isn't good for doing low polycount models and can't unwrap well optimized UV maps.

The workflow of many artists seems to be to take the Sculptris model into Blender. However, Sculptris is only used for stuff which isn't necessary to get models and characters working in Overgrowth. It just makes normalmaps, which make the models more detailed and prettier.

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Acideos
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Re: I want to learn to make characters

Post by Acideos » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:36 pm

Sculptris and blender are the way to go if your looking to model as a hobby. If your looking to do it as a profession you may want to skip them and go straight to high end programs.

Sculptris was made by Pixologic pretty much to Beta its dynamic mesh system. Which is now a standard feature in Zbrush (pixologics main software). Zbrush can create a high poly character and take it all the way to game ready in the same package if you want. Though it does have areas where it lacks in like retopo and UVing.

To learn Modeling use sites like "Polycount.com", "3d total", "CGHub", "gameartisans.org", "cgsociety.org". On these sites you can find and talk to professional artist and learn their pipelines.
modding forums are probably not a great place to learn at as most of the ppl you will talk to are in the same boat as you and are just following each others guides.

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Re: I want to learn to make characters

Post by RagdollZombie » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:20 pm

You can get an object from Sculptris into blender by sculpting your creation then exporting it as an .obj from Sculptris. From there, you go to Blender and import the exported .obj file. It may take a while to import if your model is very high detail (or at least it does on my computer) It won't be fully game ready but that's how you get a Sculptris model into blender...
Last edited by RagdollZombie on Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Acideos
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Re: I want to learn to make characters

Post by Acideos » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:30 pm

Lol which is why you should be using Zbrush. You can run things like "Decimation master" to lower the poly count and retain detail.

http://pixologic.com/zbrush/features/decimation/

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Endoperez
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Re: I want to learn to make characters

Post by Endoperez » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:52 am

Acideos wrote:Lol which is why you should be using Zbrush. You can run things like "Decimation master" to lower the poly count and retain detail.

http://pixologic.com/zbrush/features/decimation/
You are wrong, dude.

Decimation Master, Blender's Decimation modifier, and the similar Max modifier, they all SUCK. You can NOT use them for animated characters, because these totally screw up the topology.

This is what you should have:
Image

This is what Decimate gives you:

Image

(source: http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=117040 )

You might get away with Decimated topology in something like rocks, or trees, as long as they're not animated. You also might get away with that if you pre-render everything. Games don't do that, and characters need to be animated, so you can NOT use decimate or similar stuff to get the lowpoly character.


Next, Sculptris was NOT made by Pixologic. It was made by a guy who was, obviously, really good at it, so Pixologic hired him and bought his technology and know-how.

Finally, unlike in 2D world where Photoshop is king, competition between 3D softwares is much more even. The "high end" programs would be 3DS Max and Maya are big, Rhino and Civil 3D and Revit also seem to be used, then there's Modo, and Cinema 4D... and Blender. Even Google Sketchup gets used! Sculpting programs are less divided, ZBrush can handle the highest detail but Mudbox and 3D Coat and Sculptris all get used too.

Speaking as a Blender hobbyist who is now studying 3D for games industry, I can tell you that the biggest problem in learning 3D is learning to do 3D. Learning how to use a specific program is EASY, once you know how to do 3D. If you can do amazing stuff in Blender, you can do amazing stuff in 3DS Max after a few weeks or so.

Now, given that you aren't locked in with your first choice, why is Blender a good first pick? Blender is not the biggest one around, that's true. However, Blender is FREE, and LEGAL. That is important. Why? You can FREELANCE with Blender. You can't legally do that with pirated 3DS Max or Maya or any of the other softwares. I think the Student license for Autodesk products might allow you to make a couple of freelance projects, but the number is quite limited.


There are reasons for not using Blender. They are not the ones you listed, but:

The particle system is worse than in 3DS Max. You can do amazing stuff, especially smoke and liquid, but some other stuff is hard.
You can't export and import rigs. You can export and import characters and animations between different software packages, but if you start animating in Blender, other people can't continue animating in Max or Maya.
Blender has more hotkeys. Some people don't like hotkeys.
Max and Maya have more plugins. Many of those plugins are awesome. Many are really expensive. Still, there's cool stuff even in the free ones.
And probably other stuff.

I guess that's about it.

Reasons for using Blender?

It's faster to model in Blender. This is partly down to my personal preference, but partly because of inherent differences in modeling and UI approach. Blender can do via keyboard shortcuts things that, in 3DS Max, takes almost a second. This may not sound like a lot, but these are commands for moving vertices around, and that's one of the biggest time-sinks in modeling.

The unwrapping system is better. One of my friends, proficient in both Maya and Max, begged me to teach him Blender after I showed how Blender unwraps things. It's that awesome. Simple, easy, FAST. Maya and Max can unwrap too, of course, but getting the results you get in Blender is slower. This was last year without plugins, though.

Blender is the ONLY program that can create Overgrowth characters, at the moment.

That doesn't sound like much, maybe - but remember, that's what the OP is asking for. How to MODEL, and how to put that model into the game. To do that, the model has to be unwrapped, textured (in 3D painting software, which Blender can kinda do, or in 2D, like Photoshop), and skinned and exported.

Blender does everything he wants as well or better than 3DS Max. Blender is the only way to get the character into Overgrowth.

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Macrauchenia
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Re: I want to learn to make characters

Post by Macrauchenia » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:37 am

Endoperez wrote: You are wrong, dude.

Decimation Master, Blender's Decimation modifier, and the similar Max modifier, they all SUCK. You can NOT use them for animated characters, because these totally screw up the topology.


You might get away with Decimated topology in something like rocks, or trees, as long as they're not animated. You also might get away with that if you pre-render everything. Games don't do that, and characters need to be animated, so you can NOT use decimate or similar stuff to get the lowpoly character.
What?

That's exactly how I made my Chameleon/Frog characters (modeled in Scluptris, decimated in Blender), and they both turned out fine I think...

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Endoperez
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Re: I want to learn to make characters

Post by Endoperez » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:14 pm

Hmm, I'm looking into it and I can see that the topology is all screwed up, but the characters still work. This is quite interesting.

I have never tried doing a character like that on my own, so I hadn't realized it would work to that extent. However, all my teachers, and all the tutorials I have read, and all the books I have read, keep telling me that triangles are to be avoided, and good topology with pre-planned edge loops are important for character modeling.

For example:

Image
http://giovanniluccablog.wordpress.com/ ... formation/


I don't know how far you can get with decimate-generated topology, but it seems like it is indeed possible to get all the important limbs skinned and animated, which is enough to have the character work in Overgrowth.

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Re: I want to learn to make characters

Post by RagdollZombie » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:27 pm

I think sculptris and mudbox are really good for modeling for Overgrowth. They both have free versions (I think one of them might be opensource) And Aubery had used Mudbox for some of his art assets. Zbrush would also be good, but It's expencive and only has a 30 day trial.

In blender I always make my models out of quad faces, but Overgrowth will crash if you just send in a character with quad faces. You have to turn them all into triangles, I do this in blender since I make my models in blender. It doubles the polygon count though, but because your model has all quads (If you've avoided making triangles in the mesh!) It should be easy to change it back to a quad faced mesh if needed. But this doesn't always work if your mesh already had some triangles in it...

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Acideos
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Re: I want to learn to make characters

Post by Acideos » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:31 pm

Listen to me. You are a student learning 3d. I get it. you are proud of what you know.

Not sure how to go about this next part with out sounding like a jerk but ill try.
I work in the game industry atm. I make characters every day. I have taught 3d at 2 different schools. I have been where you are.

You obviously don't know how to use the tools your talking about though. Of course you don't use a decimated character for animation. Its a tool for bringing a model that is say 14 million polys like my Altair rabbit into programs like Max so you can retopo the character by hand in that program.

I told the OP to learn on other sites cus of this exact issue. You are a student. You think you know everything but you do not. All your going to do is teach the OP bad habits.

Go look at through job openings at game studios plz. you will find the words "Maya" and "max" used at every studio. you will see zbrush and mudbox used for every job opening for character artist. you will not see scuptris or blender. Blender was used on this game cus its free. They are a indie studio. they are not going to go and buy a 3000$ license for max.

But for us. making mods. you dont have to use blender. You can make your characters in max or maya and just import them into blender to set up the rig. And guess what! you dont have to pirate max or maya OR buy them. you can download student copys for free from autodesk. they do the same thing.

Image

There is my 14 mill poly character in max. It has been decimated to about 1mil now. Enough that I can manually retopo in max now yay.

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Re: I want to learn to make characters

Post by Acideos » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:45 pm

The picture you are using of the Sword from polycount is being miss used. The model was decimated so he could use it for baking. He did not decimate it with the intention of using it as a in game asset.

Edit: Just read your second post. Triangles are good and bad. They are not something you want in a edge loop obviosly cus they harm deformation. But they 100% fine to use in areas with no deformation to lower polycount or better display a silhouette shape. Example. On a characters leg you would not use triangles around the knee as it needs to deform but past that around the shin it would be perfectly fine to use triangles to lower the polycount. In the end the game engine is going to turn all quads into triangles any way so remember that. The biggest issue you are going to get with a tri is the star it will create. if you can keep stars in areas of less importance. If used on a leg like i mentioned above you would want to keep the tri and the star it creates to the inside of the leg where it will be seen less.

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Endoperez
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Re: I want to learn to make characters

Post by Endoperez » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:45 pm

Acideos wrote:Listen to me. You are a student learning 3d. I get it. you are proud of what you know.

You are right, I am a proud student. Thanks for the polite reply, I don't thing being harsh is being a jerk. If it were, I'd be a jerk as well...

Any way, your posts were unclear. It seemed like you were saying that decimated models would be used as low-poly, not as the baking source. For example, you replied to this:
" It may take a while to import if your model is very high detail (or at least it does on my computer) It won't be fully game ready but that's how you get a Sculptris model into blender..."

with "Lol use decimation".

I assumed you meant that the decimation would be used to get it game ready, not to make a "medium-poly" model that a non-sculpting software can handle. I was wrong, and I didn't realize you 1) were the one who made the Altair model, which is great or 2) that you are a professional.

I know decimated characters aren't used for animation and that you retopo them, but I read your post wrong and thought YOU were saying that. I agree that decimation works for making a baking source, and again, I misread your posts. I think we mostly agree there.

Also, while I occasionally get uppity, I try to avoid giving advice based on my own opinions. For example, earlier in this thread I listed the kinds of skillsets one needs to model characters, but didn't try to describe them myself. I don't know which tutorials would be good, so I only linked to the Joan of Arc, which I think is still one of the most detailed ones.

I know Blender (or Sculptris) won't be the the program used in a game studio. Even for Overgrowth, they are using Max and Mudbox. The problem they had was finding an animation package, and for some reason they chose Blender over Max. However, as I said, once you know 3D in one package, it is easy to take that skillset into a different package. Blender into Max is quite simple - you stop using hotkeys and start using the mouse more. Some things work differently, and some internal differences take long to understand, but the basic modeling is up to the same level of quality very soon. In my experience, it's the modeling speed that suffers the most.

However, I think that the jump is much easier once you understand one program well, and not just enough to get by. So I think it's better to use one program for a while, before doing much in a different one. Since getting the character into Overgrowth requires Blender any way, mixing Max into the mix would just make a mess of things.

That is all logical, to me, given my premises (the bolded parts). You are free to disagree with me. If the OP had asked "if I only know one program which I will use when I am a professional, what would it be?" the answer would be Max. If you think someone should only learn one 3D software then obviously it should be Max - I just think relying on just Max limits your options more than learning both Blender and Max.

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