Overgrowth - Random Idea Dumping Thread

Anything related to Wolfire Games and/or its products
User avatar
Colicedus
forom-muppat-yoda
Posts: 2592
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:57 am
Location: Where ever your mind takes you

Post by Colicedus » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:55 pm

I think when you die or get KO you can click the mouse to wake up or respawn in a near by friendly Medical wing or something, when you die, you have no choice wether to wait or respawn, but when KO you can lay there for a while. maybe in some points getting KO is promoted in parts of the story and is required for special paths.

Zantalos
The Postman
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:43 pm
Location: Santa Clara,CA

Post by Zantalos » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:51 pm

Well, waiting 15 minutes to wake up sounds pretty boring, and just respawning at the nearest "medical wing" is pretty lame too. If you just respawn at a town you should have some clearly visible effects like scarring and temporary strength decreasements. Getting knocked out and the enemy leaving you alone, I guess it would be pretty cool to wake back up in the same spot, but any victims should be dragged away and all your items taken, it should also happen much faster, like gamespeed sped up a hundred times so you only have to wait like 5 seconds or something (being left alive should only work for robbers and stuff, never wolves).


I think it would be cool if the dogs in Lugaru were really nice or loyal. And if wounds you get from being slashed (say by a sword), could get dressed and the wound texture would be covered up with a bandage or something. Like, right on top of the cut, so no matter where it is it'd look cool.

User avatar
GaGrin
Posts: 341
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:45 pm

Post by GaGrin » Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:39 pm

A lasting scar on games as logical media...

DEATH!

Why does defeat always mean death? I mean, honestly, why people talk about a penalty for dead in game set in a represetative world is just plain stupid - death IS the penalty goddamnit!

/rant over

Back on track, try and look at defeat as defeat rather than death outright.

You can lose and not be forced to replay a section/restart the mission/whatever. Its a valid outcome in narrative-based structures. Obviously death isn't. Death should be the - youfuckeduprealbad stage. You get KO to wolves or plummet of a cliff onto something less soft than hay and thats death. Lose a fight against moral opponents? Take a nasty (but survivable) fall? A setback. Possible plot infulence.

Meh. Just my opinion. MMOs lost me the moment they started talking about death penalties. Either kill the character or don't. If it ain't death DONT CALL IT DEATH!

:x

IMO of course. Personally I find it very difficult to give credit to any world where death is feared by everyone, if it has no noticable effect on anyone.

Yes, its fantasy. But even fantasy needs to be internally consistant.

User avatar
BunnyWithStick
Gramps, Jr.
Posts: 4297
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:14 am
Location: New Zealand

Post by BunnyWithStick » Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:23 pm

Clan Lord uses a system of being fallen, in which you just lie there until a healer comes (Usually by calling one by means of "Toggling"), and departing, in which you lose a little experience from the trauma and are sent to Purgatory, where after a little while (About a minute or a half) you end up appearing in the town temple. (The reason for this happening instead of just dying is apparently the magic of the Lok'groton where the game takes place)

Just pointing out that not all MMOGs and MMORPGs have quite as much of a death-is-instant effect.

Zantalos
The Postman
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:43 pm
Location: Santa Clara,CA

Post by Zantalos » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:01 pm

Wait, do you mean games should never let you die? Or do you mean that once you are dead, you can never play the game again with that character, because he's dead....

User avatar
GaGrin
Posts: 341
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:45 pm

Post by GaGrin » Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:59 am

I mean if death isn't a problem why do all solutions normally resort to violence?

Think about it.

Take a typical fantasy MMO - you spawn at the home town, bind and go out to rid the outside world of orcs.

Except you aren't. You're killing endless numbers of infinately respawning orcs. INFINITE! Its utterly pointless. And there's no risk in this battle either because you can't die. Sure, you can be "delayed" but meh, you'll just respawn.

Honestly I think that people are too stuck in their current game mechanics to really try and think there way out of this utter narrative death. You don't even need a good reason - the "Fallen" term used in Clan Lord that BunnyWithStick mentioned is perfectly acceptable - at least you've go a reason for it within the setting.

Meh - I bet most players don't care. But personally I like my fantasy to make sense within its own boundries. I'll accept and play anything as long as it respects its own laws. Break those and you're essentially cheating. And thats not interesting or fun.

And to answer Zantalos most directly:
I think Permadeath isn't explored as much as it should be. Just because the character is dead doesn't mean you have to lose your progress, you just have to think outside the incredibly narrow band of thought that is "character improvement as a game".

Another way of looking at it - what is the point of danger without risk?

I'm not saying that all games should suddenly change either - i'm just saying we can afford to try out something new and I for one would like to see something done differently for a change.

User avatar
invertin
Sticky
Posts: 3828
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:05 am
Location: IN A CAN OF AWESOME!

Post by invertin » Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:04 pm

Since we're talking about death in MMO's, in city of heroes there are just so many villains it seems infinate, but it isn't, (atleast according to story) and when a villain dies, he doesn't actually die, he gets knocked out (alot of the time this seems impossible, as he is burned, frozen, thrown about, had his brain messed with, shot with energy and various guns, and many more) and his body is teleported to jail (which makes me wonder what the point of beating him up in the first place). When a hero is killed (knocked out, actually) he is instantly teleported to hospital (again, why do we beat them up if they can be teleported? And whats the point of fighting through hords of enemies until you get to the boos unstead of just teleporting there?) and then fixed up with healing stations. (How do these work? Don't ask me)

It's flawed in so many different ways, but its better than "you can come back at death cause your special."

User avatar
GaGrin
Posts: 341
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:45 pm

Post by GaGrin » Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:15 pm

Ironically, I think death in fantasy games is an untapped goldmine. Imagine all the cool things you could do if the characters died and went into the afterlife. You've got this whole other plain of existance running ontop of the normal one (kind of like WoW - I think they are wasting so much opportunity) and you'd have certain powers that would let the living commune with the dead, let the dead come into the land of the living for short periods or in certain locations etc, etc.

You could even have a rewards system for laying you characters ghost to rest (and helping players acheive rest).

I think the real trouble comes from the fact players expect to die. :P

Zantalos
The Postman
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:43 pm
Location: Santa Clara,CA

Post by Zantalos » Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:27 pm

But death is a problem, and games have tried a whole lot of things.

What kind of ways are you talking about? Lowering stats? Taking away gold? Going back to your last save? Diablo 2 on Hardcore mode? These are punishments for dying, but somehow I have a feeling that these are what you do not like. Say something as an example so I can at least have a feel for what methods you're talking about, rather than, death is stupid because there's no risk involved. Which I don't understand.


Well here is what David had said about dying and being injured. There won't be any "Oblivion quicksaves" so you can't just go back after a fight didn't turn out the way you planned.
David wrote:I don't think we will be using either of those options. Dying and being seriously injured will have serious consequences in L2, but won't be nearly as common as in L1.
The two options were respawning at a safe zone, or WoW like where you have to get back to your dead body and stuff. But you already know this quote.

User avatar
GaGrin
Posts: 341
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:45 pm

Post by GaGrin » Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:10 pm

Okay - the best example I can give of one you can go away and see would be Dwarf Fortress.

The world is permanent and persistant, as are all your choices and the outcomes of everything you do. You cannot go back, or change your mind. If the character you are playing dies - the character is dead.

But - and this is the important bit - everything the character did remains done. All the creatures they killed, items they made, quests they succeeded etc. But they are still dead.

The next character you make goes back into the same world. And if they roam the same area you can see the aftermath of the previous characters life.

Now I'm not suggesting this for all MMOs. Infact you couldn't put this into current MMOs, they'd need to be totally redesigned and in the end I think you'd be appealing to a different set of players. Not that thats not a reason to try it out :P

Thats one example. To be honest its the kind of thing I would need to know a type of gaming in mind. Often the best way round it is simply to explain the re-appearance of the character.

I'm probably just being fussy - I just don't like "respawn" appearing outside of deathmatch.

User avatar
invertin
Sticky
Posts: 3828
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:05 am
Location: IN A CAN OF AWESOME!

Post by invertin » Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:28 pm

I don't like the idea of coming back as someone else, Lugaru is Turners story and it should remain Turners story.

User avatar
GaGrin
Posts: 341
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:45 pm

Post by GaGrin » Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:24 pm

I'm certainly not suggesting that for this game.

As you quite rightly point out it doesn't work for anything based on a single character - and Lugaru is Turners story.

To be honest I'd be happy with an autosave of sorts - at key points the game saves your progress and you continue from that point. Quitting would create a temporary save point to continue from when you next start the game.

So after each major event and at convient times the save updates. So if you travel to a new area you'd save - have a major plot development in a town you'd save, defeat the evil cat-people of Mew you'd save and so on.

Just have it linked to a profile and autosave over the top each time. We can always have more than one profile if we want to explore the game a different way.

Death would be a load state. Everything else is a plot development.

Again - just my opinion.

User avatar
Crill3
Indecisive titler
Posts: 1935
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:54 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Post by Crill3 » Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:36 pm

Death = death, me wants in L2.

Then it's just the question of saving. When, where, how etc.
Has been discussed before..

Kalexon
Kalexon
Posts: 339
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:46 pm
Location: Serenity

Post by Kalexon » Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:29 pm

I've already said this in another thread a while ago but I'll repeat myself.

Basicly if you die you load back in the last safe place, that may be a village town, or city, or maybe shelter that you have set up yourself. And at the beggining of the game you can decide on weather you want to go with normal or Strict/Hardcore Mode where if you die, you die. In game that is.

User avatar
rudel_ic
official Wolfire heckler
Posts: 2193
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 11:19 pm
Location: Hamburg City
Contact:

Post by rudel_ic » Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:29 pm

What's so hardcore about a 'Game Over' screen? God, gamers have become sissies nowadays.
I say, you just die and that's it. But you can save. And there's an optional location-triggered autosave.
Why the complicated stuff? There's no point to it and it's not improving the experience.

Post Reply