Female Characters

[Xorath]

I'd like to stress, for those who haven't read the original blog post, that female characters ARE going to be in Overgrowth. Already decided; no arguing that topic. This thread is about how they should be depicted. I'd really appreciate it if people read the original post, which is right here:
http://blog.wolfire.com/2009/01/female- ... vergrowth/
It's pretty interesting, so read it before saying something ridiculous.

Definitely looks like they're going for a more tasteful approach, rather than having a character that must work to see past her own breasts. I saw some concerns about nude models, but...

The Wookie Rule: A character covered in nothing but fur is not really naked.
So there. Sexuality is not a focus of this game, but it will be present, and there are safe ways to implement it. I've said it before and I'll probably say it a thousand times over, the Wolfire team knows what it's doing.

[Korban3]

Tell me about it. I'm so sick of games that have female characters only to give guys a hard on. It DOES ruin the game, I think. If that's all the females are to game producers, then why have 'em in their game? I'm glad that Wolfire is steering away from that. The original post was an interesting read, though. Pretty insightful into how deep Overgrowth is going to be.
And what's wrong with Tomb Raider other than skimpy clothing, people? I liked the puzzles in the old ones. DIGRESSION!
I don't think the nude models are a big problem. I read about a modular clothing system being a goal to get together, and nude models work best for assembling unique gear and clothing setups. It's only as awqward (Dangit! How do you spell awqward? Been trying for like five minutes.) as you make it: from a developer standpoint, the nude models are an art asset in the final product, not porn. But yes, there are many more tactful ways to go about femininity in film and games than big boobs and little/no clothing, and Wolfire knows it. They just wanted community input, at least when the blog post was made, about the different methods of getting that point across.
Oh, and LookforAI, post something that contributes to the conversation. A sax recut of clips from a TR game I've never seen doesn't have anything to do with OG, so say something that has an opinion based upon logic and reason, or at least based upon fanatical religious beliefs, or say silly stuff somewhere else, please.

[Endoperez]

If that's all the females are to game producers, then why have 'em in their game?


Dangit! How do you spell awqward? Been trying for like five minutes.)

Because sex sells and if the games don't sell, dozens of guys get laid off and can't feed or educate their kids.

It's awkward. "awk" as in "orc", and "ward" as in "ward".

[Korban3]

Yeah, sex sells. "...what a wonderful world."
Anyways, thanks for the spelling. Jeez, I usually spell well, but that word always trips me up. Lol, must be my grammatical kryptonite.
Well, I like that Wolfire is going for a different take on sex. Maybe they'll continue the 'crusade' that Valve started with Alyx and Chell. Haha, sure, that'll catch on. Good luck with that trend Wolfire, but I'm gonna love it when you do it.

[johndh]

For the most part, you can't really tell the difference between a male and female of most animal species unless you're examining their genitals, so it's entirely possible that half of the rabbits and wolves in Lugaru were female too. SPOILER -- Turner even makes a remark about it in one of the wolf levels toward the end.

[Korban3]

Exactly. I agree that in Lugaru, although I've only played the demo, the charactes' gender wasn't immediately obvious, if it ever shown at all. I'd just imagine that people would like a slight difference shown. Not overdone, since, as you said, the animals have very little difference at first glance, but more flowing lines and a slight breasts to get that felling of feminity across. The male characters (or what I'm assuming are male) are just fine, but it just gets confusing trying to say that the wolf we've all been seeing is most definately a guy if the gender difference is non-existant outside of speech and name. I dunno: it's been said many times, many ways: Wolfire knows what they're doing and what they want. Just getting my opinion out there, and making a easier to find place for other's opinions on the topic.

[kehaar]

The Wookie Rule: A character covered in nothing but fur is not really naked.
So there. Sexuality is not a focus of this game, but it will be present, and there are safe ways to implement it.

Excellent point. And in fact, it was easy to install female characters into a Lugaru campaign. The basic rabbit model had just big enough thighs and legs (because it's a rabbit, right?) and a narrow-ish waist and wide but not superhero-cartoon-body builder wide shoulders. They are plenty believable as athletic women.

One common cartoon trick to make anything a girl is to put long eyelashes on it-- a toaster, a mouse, whatever-- and some single article of clothing-- a bow for the hair, etc.

So for a main character I tried all the rabbit skins available, and noticed that one skin had the "prettiest" eyes. The were just a bit longer and more almond shaped than the others, and went really nicely with her brown fur.

Then all I had to do is put a shirt or pants on the female characters that might be considered more of a girl's color-- a purplish-blue top and blue pants for my main one, and a pink top and white pants for a vicious boss lady, some pretty "mom" colors for a mom.

And lastly and easiest of all, you just call them women. Anyone named "Rose" is most likely a girl, right? I named a wolf "Claire" and put her in a fox skin, put some yellow-orange pants on her and made all the npc's bigger to make her seem smaller. I named a wolf "Mima" and had her just sitting without clothes in her blood-soaked fox fur. She talks like a grandmother to the two girls, who's to say she isn't a grandmother? To make a fox man stand out, I made a black vest-- we were watching "Firefly" at the time, and the doctor wore one. Sort of something an educated guy might wear in another time...

[Korban3]

Yes, but I think the problem arises with cats here. The cats, as far as we've been told wear different colors and patterns to represent social things like family and class. So, if a male cat is wearing pink for his family, and his sister is there wearing pink too... then we've got an issue. i also feel that using colors as a gender reference can feel kind of simple, I guess, when its used constantly. A purple scarf here and some light blue bow tie on the head, but I think it starts to feel cheap after a while of seeing it when its really thrown in your face, but its definately an option, especially if its executed well and a little bit more subtle. As for speech, this was mentioned in the blog post. They said that if there is any voice acting that would help, but often times, we don't get dialogue, especially with games were there are npcs that don't interact with the player much. Speech is a good measure of gender and even more so when its made really obvious, like the grandma. I think the speech is really good when dealing with characters that have a lot of development in the story. Also, behaviour is very good, even for non-dialogue entities. For example, if we see a character constructing a stone wall or shed, and assuming there is no visual gender differentiation, then we might assume its male because of the nature of its actions. Conversly, a character wearing a dress, carrying a basket of veggies and fish would be assumed to be a female. But in some cultures, men wear long clothing too, but that's up to Wolfire to develop their cultures how they want.
Sorry for the long post, but I just have to say that these opinions are nice to talk about. I really hope that some people looking to develop games too will read this and hopefully feel like they can better make their own decisions as well.

[johndh]

Regarding voices, they can be pitch-shifted in the character config files, so that could be a little audio clue even without dialogue. Maybe gender just doesn't play as big of a role in these animal cultures? If your males are roughly as big and strong as the males, then why wouldn't they do a lot of the building, hunting, and fighting? For the most part, I don't think gender even really needs to be addressed. It wasn't really addressed in Lugaru. The only way we even know that Turner is male is because of the pronouns and the fact that he had a wife.

Edit: By the way, female rabbits are commonly larger than the males. I just learned that.

[Korban3]

Exactly. Its up to the devs to develop the races and cultures how they like, including the appearance of males and females. I didn't that about rabbits though, cool. That happens in a lot of species, I think. Spiders especially, but I heard that female T-Rexs were much larger... and scarier... and meaner. Its a gender mutation, I guess it would arise because females that are larger and stronger can defend their babies better, leading to that trait to pass on. I should really do some more research on this. Maybe species where the male stays with the young have less of a difference, since the female doesn't have to depend on just herself? But with the construction example, you hit it right on the button: If the genders are equal in strength, then its up to cultural norms to dictate what things usually mean what. Going to be interesting once everythin gets put together, to see how Wolfire does it. Whatever they do, I'll be happy.

[adm.melonhead]

I recently made an Overgrowth thread on 4chan. I didn't even consider the anthropomorphism before they brought it up. If there are going to be female characters, it would probably be somewhat meaningless if they didn't resemble females in a way recognizable to humans. So yeah. Subtle change in model and animations with female hurt sounds is good enough for me.

That is, unless females would have some sort of altered social status in the world of Overgrowth. Like the priestess concept art in the blog post, perhaps they should be considered holy, or demeaned, and we have some sort of equality subplot. That would be kind of stupid in the wrong writing hands, though.

[Revnant666]

Female character? Looking for the vivid blood spilt from female? Oh, my... Moreover, how do you know that the current characters are male?

Please DO NOT waste time to build female bodies, make female voice, and female animation. Including female is just mortal and plain idea. This can not make the game more competitive, specialized, and distinct from many games in the current market, but instead, the words such as "sick", "perverted", "fetish", "SM" must be added to the future comments of this game.

how is including female characters make it perverted and distinct? Breasts arnt something you should be afraid of its not like if there are female characters with breasts doesnt mean its sick and perverted. now days nearly every game as a female character which shows alot of cleavage and is seen as a sex symbol. i doubt if overgrowth has female characters which i think it will have, it wont turn into a boob fest

[Korban3]

Exactly. It's like the statment "That man is a Jew." Because of people's over-politicalcorrectness, that phrase has become 'rascist'. Same with boobs: if they're there, it's obviously perverted. I hate modern misconceptions that society tends to hold. The original post said that females were a for sure, and I feel like Wolfire takes OG seriously enough to not screw that up.

[adm.melonhead]

is anyone else waiting on the edge of their seat for another lookingforAI post?
guy's hilarious...

[Korban3]

Yeah, a little bit. I sure do love me some idiots posting on forums.