Overgrowth Multiplayer discussion

[Endoperez]

Multiplayer games inevitably get repetitive and boring. There are a few gems out there (Battlefield Bad Company 2, Team Fortress 2, Counterstrike) that seem timeless, but honestly, most multiplayer games only hook me for maybe a total of 20 to 30 hours of gameplay.

Some single-player games seem timeless, but most single-player games only hook me for less than 20 or 30 hours of gameplay. By comparison, I've sunk a lot of time, possibly over 100 hours, on some multiplayer games (Team Fortress 2, Dominions 3, League of Legends).

tl;dr -> I'll take quality over "lasting appeal" any day. Anyone who wouldn't do the same obviously either hasn't had the pleasure of playing through some utterly fantastic singleplayer titles or just has a ridiculously short attention span, and rapid, repetitive multiplayer games (CALL OF DOOTIE) are the only thing that they can play without getting bored.

You're comparing good SP games to bad MP games.

Chess is a multiplayer game. It's timeless, and the features that make it timeless can be reproduced in PC games.

All team sports, possibly all sports, are by nature multiplayer games. The features that make them enjoyable are duplicated in certain games, which is why we have 'e-sports'.

I prefer SP games too, but I can see why some people prefer MP.

[Nekros22]

At this point talking about multiplayer functionality, or anything other than finishing the game, is premature.

There is so much modding capability wrapped up in Overgrowth that I wouldn't be surprised if multiplayer capability made its way into the game in the form of a fan made modification.

[SuXoR]

Both sides seem to make good points so what it really comes down to is what you prefer. There's no real way to say that multiplayer is absolutely better than single player or vise versa. It's just what players prefer - some people will only buy games that have multiplayer capability and others prefer a nice long in-depth sp campaign. Even if multiplayer seems static to some people, there is a reason that the most popular games at the moment have fully functioning multiplayer capability. I feel that from a marketing perspective, adding multiplayer would be an incredibly easy (well ok I'm not sure how "easy" it would be but) way to almost double overgrowth's audience (boosting sales ey! Helping you fund your next awesome game or expansion!), and spread to different gamer communities via word of mouth and competitive play. When you dont have a huge advertising campaign like Blizzard or Bioware, then you need all of the hooks and appeal you can get. I personally think what really gives multiplayer an advantage in term's of a game's life span is that multiplayer (coupled with the awesome map editor and mods that can be put into this game) adds a whole new dynamic of gameplay that keeps the game from getting static by keeping you hunting for better competition, improving your own skills beyond the AI, finding fun groups of people to play with, as well as a living community outside of the official forms with which to talk and communicate.
Multiplayer also has the benefit of teaching new players how to play without forcing them to learn everything all on their own. With access to a live community, they have a bunch of potential mentors out there who could show them new tricks or skills that they missed while playing alone. On top of that, the wider audience overgrowth gets, the more maps, mods, skins, and other features you'll get from fans.

While lag seems to be the biggest issue with multiplayer, maybe it could be restricted to LAN games at the very least? If you can have a co-op, why not increase it to 4 players and then turn friendly fire on you know? I dont really know anything about the causes/prevention of lag in a game so, I probably shouldn't be talking about this stuff anyways x_X. In any case, even if it's quite difficult to pull off, I think multiplayer shouldn't be at the very bottom of the totem pole. I mean, you could also release the normal single player game, and then later release a multiplayer expansion or something of that sort.

[Korban3]

You know, I could do without OG Deathmatch, Capture the Flag, and King of the Hill, but It really pisses me off when new games that would be perfect for co-op don't even have splitscreen. I'd have loved to see Dead Space 2 co-op. That'd be cool. Co-op doesn't seem to get the same praise as multiplayer. I'd rather see co-op in Overgrowth than what we see in crappy multiplayer and great multiplayer, which I've heard does in fact exist. Although I don't agree that multiplayer is mandatory; that's just arrogant.

[Murd]

the player radius thing is really rediculous, when we move onto multiplayer a crosshair system has to be put into play with attacks that are not dependent on another players origin.

this would not be impossible to accomplish, but if you go through the aschar script as it is now, many aspects of the combat functions are dependent on the player radius (distance dependent). facing directions, attack initiations, all are integrated into a system completely void of a defined crosshair. When asking for a new system to have just for multiplayer remember you are asking them to re-invent the wheel.


not saying a new wheel would be bad

[Korban3]

I don't think crosshairs are necesarry. As it is there are only two factors to an attack: Close or far? and then moving or stationary. It's pretty simple and effective. Also, crosshairs complicate the entire combat. Having to aim melee attacks is weird, and detatchs from realism a little, because in real life hand to hand combat is something that you have to be present for. It's feels like that assumes that killing with a handgun is an identical process to killing by hand.
I think that the devs have a good setup for combat, and at this point, redisigning how the characters attack is costly and ridiculous. The cross hairs would also be an internal change in controls: Either you use crosshairs in multiplayer and single, but the npcs don't because they don't have user inputs like a mouse. They use the exact same system as the player right now.

[Murd]

I don't think crosshairs are necesarry. As it is there are only two factors to an attack: Close or far? and then moving or stationary. It's pretty simple and effective. Also, crosshairs complicate the entire combat. Having to aim melee attacks is weird, and detatchs from realism a little, because in real life hand to hand combat is something that you have to be present for. It's feels like that assumes that killing with a handgun is an identical process to killing by hand.
I think that the devs have a good setup for combat, and at this point, redisigning how the characters attack is costly and ridiculous. The cross hairs would also be an internal change in controls: Either you use crosshairs in multiplayer and single, but the npcs don't because they don't have user inputs like a mouse. They use the exact same system as the player right now.

-it causes difficulties for multiplayer when basing so many core attacks on the correct distance between two entities, without relying on some sort of prediction feature.
-aiming melee attacks isn't weird it is changing the facing direction of the attack. 360* and height pitch isn't uncommon; if anything it shows intent on where a player is striking and can also serve as another input to cycle through different options of moves through changes based on crosshair position and crosshair movement
-you can't freely practice individual moves, and attacking is as simple as holding down the button
npcs are on a target lock system, they move with basic functions and are on a seperate set of instructions when it comes to approaching other players.
and what happens to thrown weapons, i don't see auto-lockon throws as effective enough for single player and completely illogical for multiplayer

don't get me wrong though i see nothing bad with the system now, but if you intend on extending this past singleplayer and opening up options to mods or just new ideas for weapons, you might get stuck in the radius combat structure and only be limited to some simple modifications of the attack effects already implemented.

[Korban3]

I can see multiplayer working very well if it goes to coop. If David and the guys can get around the sync issues for PvP, then I believe that few roblems will arise with controls. People will already be used to what attacks they will see coming at them, the distance they see, and will be able to react effectively. Although the NPCs don't move like a human would control them, the do calculate attacks EXACTLY the way the player does when he clicks. If they want to attack, then they pick the nearest target and perform an attack. When the player wants to attack, triggered by button press rather than code, the code picks the nearest enemy, and attacks. Because all NPCs and players are on equal terms regarding health, speed, attack set, and strength, barring use of other species, I think that they will feel like fighting people is very similar to fighting NPCs, but with a bit more human in it. I just don't see a need to rewrite a perfectly functioning system.

[Endoperez]

Because all NPCs and players are on equal terms regarding health, speed, attack set, and strength,

Even a good AI can use a small edge over humans, so that might not be true for all enemies.

I agree with most of your points otherwise. However, the current system isn't necessarily enough to tell what the final combat system will be like.Some sort of viewport control might come at some point any way. It existed in Lugaru in some form, after all. Either camera direction or facing system, I'm a bit hazy on the details. I don't remember if it affected the blocking, but IIRC at least animal run, running tackle and rabbit kick direction were controlled by the camera direction.

[Krabman318]

Even a good AI can use a small edge over humans, so that might not be true for all enemies.

I agree with most of your points otherwise. However, the current system isn't necessarily enough to tell what the final combat system will be like.Some sort of viewport control might come at some point any way. It existed in Lugaru in some form, after all. Either camera direction or facing system, I'm a bit hazy on the details. I don't remember if it affected the blocking, but IIRC at least animal run, running tackle and rabbit kick direction were controlled by the camera direction.

I remember that when playing Lugaru on insane difficulty, you can only do reversals on enemies facing you.

[Korban3]

Because all NPCs and players are on equal terms regarding health, speed, attack set, and strength,

Even a good AI can use a small edge over humans, so that might not be true for all enemies.

I agree with most of your points otherwise. However, the current system isn't necessarily enough to tell what the final combat system will be like.Some sort of viewport control might come at some point any way. It existed in Lugaru in some form, after all. Either camera direction or facing system, I'm a bit hazy on the details. I don't remember if it affected the blocking, but IIRC at least animal run, running tackle and rabbit kick direction were controlled by the camera direction.

Yes, but it seems like Murd was intending that clicking high will do a high kick, and low will do a low kick, and forward will do a forward kick. It just felt too complicated for fast combat. I liked how the camera effected osme of the combat in Lugaru, but it wasn't a constant consideration when ever you attacked. Reversals were a different matter on Insane, but it feels like adding new, and complex button. It seems like it would suck for trackpads too. Aiming a thrown knife I can understand, but having to aim a punch? That should be more of a "I want the punch to hit the guy." Sort of thing. Maybe when armor is implemented, somewhere in the hazy future, precision might be neccessary, but I don't know how the devs will create the armor and combat.

[Murd]

i dont see a crosshair system mixing with the radius combat play. the radius is a free look with keypresses that change your facing direction. with a crosshair the camera would be locked into a strafe looking mode.

those are the basic differences with camera controls. if a setting were made to change those within the same game i could see them working together maaaybe in coop, but something tells me there would be more to it. trackballs and trackpads? what about joysticks and usb controllers. is this game going to be so easy that i can use these things to beat it?
and do you think people playing with mice will find multiplayer action anything short of a crapshoot novice streak when it comes to random attacks and just running at people holding down the mouse button or block?

[Endoperez]

and do you think people playing with mice will find multiplayer action anything short of a crapshoot novice streak when it comes to random attacks and just running at people holding down the mouse button or block?

There are no random attacks at the moment, at least for the players. You press crouch and attack button to perform a low kick, press the attack button while taking a step to perform a high kick, and do a normal kick when you press the attack button when other conditions haven't been fulfilled. If someone is running at you holding the attack button down, you'll know what attack he'll make and the exact moment his character will be close enough to start the attack. You might be able to evade attacks like those with just the movement keys, possibly even without space.

You don't need a complex control scheme for interesting gameplay.

[Korban3]

Indeed Endoperez, or you can really screw with folks by using your own character, who has nothing but badass boxing attacks. Jab, jab, RIGHT CROSS in your face. As multiplayer is developed, I'd love to see something that allows players to load custom characters in, especially for non-coop. I think that some limits would have to be made, like size of model, and only allowing certain attacks. The biggest problem I see is loading the model for every player involved. They'd all have to have it to see the player, so maybe load all resources from a server-side, temporary resource dump? I dunno, now I'm rambling.

[Murd]

i guess you guys must be thinking too deeply about this. instead of holding down the trigger to auto attack, it would be press once to launch one attack