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Ageshero' The Avian Project:Concepts & Modeling(?)

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Ageshero' The Avian Project:Concepts & Modeling(?)

Postby ageshero » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:22 am

Ageshero' The Avian Project:Concepts & Modeling(?) (don't get to excited.)
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Hi, my name is Jean-Luc Thomas, im embarking on a project, which is most likely bound to fail, due to the fact i have an issue with sticking to things, but i think if i put this out there, it gives me a lot more of a reason to want to get it done.

(now that i am done poking fun at my poor ability to stick to things)

So i've come up with these neat guys i have titled "The Avians" or "The Avian Empire". Comprised of Parakeet-hawk-parrot men, Barn-barred owl men, and mourning dove-pidgeon men. The 3 are really the majority of the race i think? but there is always room for additions by other users. (I've been told that Bird men are uncannon in the universe of Lugaru and Overgrowth, however... Bird men are just plain bad ass, Wutch yuu talkin bout. Plus its a mod community im introducing this to anyways.)


Being that i have some basic skill in writing(....i hope...lol). I plan to have an actual story line in there, and i'm thinking pretty big at this point. Things i want to do, and things i know i can do, and then things i simply cant do yet.

_
Some of the my ideas in the realistic sense:

Create multiple concept art pages illustrating some of the housing, culture and clothing, as well as their past history.

Hopefully, make an in game model. but i've done very little modeling.

( i'm deeply inspired by Nextbam's Turtle project viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9173 )
Some of my own 3d work. http://ageshero.deviantart.com/gallery/ (essentially the only, except for a cartoon fat cat model i was working on but the vertices got off of quads and i couldn't fix the tail and legs.)

And Texturing, and doing it in gray scale so that there will be wonderful color choices, maybe even Tropical parrot colors for species 1 (the first concept image below) but i want there to be Brown, grey , black, white. (or maybe just grey and get it some its tint able.)

I plan to use Blender, Sculptris, and photoshop for all my work on this project.
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Unrealistic( and probably impossible) stuff:

A flight mechanic programed to allow you to have limited flying abilities. Instead of the roll button you can flap and activate flight.)

Custom animations and new attacks

An Avian village and city map. Replacing the sky with a surrounding forest.

Bow and arrow, Double Daggers. (these may actually come out in game though, so that would be a joy.)

Race specialties, such as being able to Grab Rabbits or other players and opponents and lift them into the sky. Or diving down on players while in the air, also other things like arial slashing kicks.)


(bare in mind that this is simply just fun imaginative stuff, this probably wont happen.)
_

I hope this whole thing will be a huge learning experience for me as an artist.

Okay... What you all have been waiting for, actual picture of The Avians (because you guys enjoy Pictures right? *Drum roll*)

Image

(Cute aren't they.)

Some info on them: The Avians. They live in giant trees and commonly use bows and arrows, and shorter quicker melee weapons. They prefer to stay secluded and don't tend to mingle with other species. (hey, imagine a city, a place of peace, known to all in the land, where all species interlace, and the culture is vibrant.)(anyways back to the avian)

Avians are skilled particularly with bows and daggers. There abilities are of course different from other species, they are able to fly via the roll key. instead of flipping you can flap... However they do have in flight stamina, so you can glide through the air all you like but you only have a limited amount of flaps before your wings become to tired and you'll have to glide to the grown. you can also dive down fairly quick using the block button and for a short amount of time you can lift your opponent into the air and drop them into the jagged rocks below... youch.

Naturally, Most Avians share a hatred of feline kind. However some know better than to put up racial barriers, argue on petty differences and past hurts(which would include many of the Great wars between their kind)

Avians lack luster in defense and knock back power, but what they lack there they make up for with their talons which even alone are formidable weapons. They're naturally swift creatures so leaping out of reach from an opponent is easy for them.

Great trees, thousands upon thousands of years old stretch out of the great forest ground, Homes etched into the very ancient bark of them. And where homes cannot be etched, stone and wood are cut to living quarters. beware all those in the lofty trees, the traps there are many in number, and below upon the forest ground are set sharpened rocks.

Avians will not tolerate invasion of territory, where there signs spell their name, even the strongest of warriors are advised not to terry within the confines of their hollowed ground.

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Let me know your thoughts, if you really want to see this guy come to life, Warning and things to watch out for when modeling in blender, anything is appreciated.

(more info and concept art coming soon, if i can bring it to you.)

THANK YOU!
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Re: Ageshero' The Avian Project:Concepts & Modeling(?)

Postby ageshero » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:23 am

Sorry if my post was messy looking, i hope the point gets across, Point out any errors to me, wish to leeaarrn.
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Re: Ageshero' The Avian Project:Concepts & Modeling(?)

Postby Count Roland » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:03 pm

Look a bit like chozo to me. nothing constructive to add though!
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Re: Ageshero' The Avian Project:Concepts & Modeling(?)

Postby ageshero » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:55 pm

Wouldn't just "Looks like a bird man." suffice? Lol. And also...



Come on...Really?

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/17 ... _large.jpg

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... k-scan.jpg

You really think they look like Chozo?
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Re: Ageshero' The Avian Project:Concepts & Modeling(?)

Postby ShinyGem » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:56 am

Hmm, the first picture is nothing alike at all, but the second one, if he was more organic and not so stone-looking, you could maybe guess he's an Avian shaman, an important figure, king, etc. In a way I could see the Avians becoming Chozo in a distant generation into the future, the Phazon being the cause of the second mutation, where as birds mutating into Avians was the first.

Anyway, to me, they aren't alike, but I ended up coming with a way to tie their storylines together in a reasonably plausible way, I suppose..?
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Re: Ageshero' The Avian Project:Concepts & Modeling(?)

Postby ageshero » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:26 am

Lol....ooohhhkkkaaayy. Overgrowth and Metroid? how did we get here. Im a massive classic metroid fan by the way, but i dont want the forum to get side tracked. (p.s my 2nd plan next to the avians was a Metroid mod, do to the amazing platforming of overgrowth. it just felt right.) (p.s.s. Hate metroid prime hunters and Metroid other M Anime, whacky characters? WTF... wheres my secluded enclosed horror Metroid i remember playing way back in the super metroid days. I want my Ridley Scott's alien metroid...(i say that everytime metroid comes up.. lol forgive me.)



Anyways, if there's anyone here or out there who has any modeling and texturing skill, i need some advice, on how to make the textures good, realistic ( as close to the overgrowth game itself) Because i do have limited painting talent at this point, but i figure photo manipulation would help.

How should i go about painting a model? directly? or the way ive seen some people have an unwrapped version of the model, that seems kind of difficult and confusing, is there a way to paint onto that Unwrapped texture, while being able to see it appear on the model itself? I saw someone use Sculptris to texture a model, it looked pretty fantastic to me.

I dont have access to Overgrowth files because my brother owns the game. and i mean no disrespect to the creators by taking files from it for myself. plus i think when it comes to getting the model in game, you can move the join placements around pretty easy, right? so in the end it doesnt really have to be perfect (unless there's something i should be watching out for.)

Textures are honestly what i worry about the most, becasue im pretty confident in modeling the bird man and then giving him really super detailed stuff in Sculptris (model wise) i just dont know how to go about His wings, which needs to be Separate objects probably.

Do overgrowth models have an Object limit that i should be aware of? I know something about not being able to make transparent things. IT would also be nice to make the wings droop properly.. but i know already its going to be insanely glitchy looking. which starts me in doubting the wings entirely. However i do want to hope and keep for it.

Better they clip, rather than jolt dynamically all over the place with physics. But if you creative people can think of better alternatives.

I havent yet drawn it but i imagine there being kind of a cool feather formation on his back that goes from his back to arms. to create the effect portrayed in the concepts. Maybe if i went with much much shorter Wings? Even if it puts a bit of a wrench in my beloved design. In game workings is more important.
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(also trying to keep my posting count down by editing these things)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGNnhABiMdE some inspirational music from a absolutely wonderful original scong from Mikko Tarmia, Anton Riehl (apparently on flute)
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I think i might do a few modeling practice runs on the bird( or other models) because it requires alot of thought behind it. because i need to determine before hand alot of things like If the wings are going to be a solid piece or not. Ill wait and see if there's any info on the things i need to know.

Im willing to get this done, im just on a quest for knowledge and the same time (no telling how long it all will take.)

Need to know: (most of this is in game stuff i think)

1:Is there a poly limit?

2:What poly count is the turner rabbit model?

3:Can there be objects on a model.

4: How many objects can be put on a Model

5: Will those objects auto bend with the Rig?

6: is there some kind of Anti clipping thing that i'm not aware of, so that the wings(either whole, or multiple objects) will not look like crap in engine

7: will clipping object into the main model make sense in attempting to make it blend in with textures etc? or will it look messy and disorganized
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Im sure there will be some mistakes along the way. Like some how my way of texturing causes the game to crash violently Haha. Kidding, but maybe something like making many objects with different textures might give the game a little more run for its money? and then it will be a little bit of messy build because of that. I want to optimize frame rate on the character as best as possible ( without looking like crap.)
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Hope its alright if i use the form as sort of a Note pad once in a while, and give you guys something to comment on too. As well as learn if there's any modelers out there.

I was thinking about maybe making the humanoid bird, head and all (with the head sort of under developed and shrunken.

And then a 2nd object added would encompass some awesome detailed including the head, back and wings, Which would all be connected. (the mouth and eyes would hopefully be able to be animated, but im not going to get ahead of myself, but probably plan for it by making empty eyes or something of that sort ( correct me on anything if i'm headed in the wrong direction)

Anyways, the wings and head i think would be one whole piece and make it look more like the feathers are just flowing off of the top of him like robes. creating a pretty awesome affect.

Details like the indentations in the Talons and hands ( you know like the ribbed kind of chicken feet) Would have some sculptris sculpting added ( which is probably the really fun part, adding the details) however when it comes to the feathers, im not sure what i want to do Scultpris modeling wise, because i kind of want to do a bit of that Fur detail that's on the turner bunny.

I think a really amazing sort of subtle molting look as the feathers stop an go into the actual skin ( hands and feet) would look great.
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Re: Ageshero' The Avian Project:Concepts & Modeling(?)

Postby Count Roland » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:10 am

only the first one really, I was thinking in terms of the early statues of the chozo (newer metroids after the first prime were rather meh if you ask me.)
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Re: Ageshero' The Avian Project:Concepts & Modeling(?)

Postby ageshero » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:40 am

Count Roland wrote:only the first one really, I was thinking in terms of the early statues of the chozo (newer metroids after the first prime were rather meh if you ask me.)


Quite right, Im not a big fan of the designs in the new game or much of anything honest( i dont know about you)

I think metroid prime 1 was incredible, but it declined into anime doo doo sadly. I hope they bounce back with some realism in their next title, and maybe get back to what metroid is really all about, Scary corridors and monster kicking ass, and oh yes.. very memorable music as always.

(personally, i think they should do some sort of God of war/ Deadspace mix, thats what i always pictured metroid being.)
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Re: Ageshero' The Avian Project:Concepts & Modeling(?)

Postby ShinyGem » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:55 am

Sadly I can neither model or texture (never tried really), but Korban3 has some nice characters, a raptor, a fox and more, so, he might be able to help you (I think he's been without his usual internet for a while though?), Nextbam's turtle is looking quite good as well and he has a thread that may contain some information that might be useful to you on your quest. There's also a rat and a rabbit models, though I can't recall the maker's names of either, that are somewhere in the fanart thread perhaps a bit earlier than when I started, page 70.

Edit: This is a non-informed suggestion, but, if there's a way to do it, the wings could work similarly to how bushes are working right now. I'm not the best person to explain it, but it can be seen in here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy6T28-f ... r_embedded

I'm not sure if it's appliable, but it's an idea.
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Re: Ageshero' The Avian Project:Concepts & Modeling(?)

Postby Endoperez » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:31 am

ageshero wrote:1:Is there a poly limit?

2:What poly count is the turner rabbit model?

3:Can there be objects on a model.

4: How many objects can be put on a Model

5: Will those objects auto bend with the Rig?

6: is there some kind of Anti clipping thing that i'm not aware of, so that the wings(either whole, or multiple objects) will not look like crap in engine

7: will clipping object into the main model make sense in attempting to make it blend in with textures etc? or will it look messy and disorganized


1: Yes. It's not exact, but too many polys would eventually slow the game. Even so, a modeler who knows what he's doing can do good-looking stuff that runs in the engine, and use normal maps to make it look like something that's way too high-poly to run in the engine.

2:What poly count is the turner rabbit model?
I don't remember exactly. I guess it might have been around 5000 triangles.

3:Can there be objects on a model.
There's two ways to interpret this.
A) Can the character have stuff like clothes or other changeable props on it? Not yet, but they're planning to add them to OG.
B) Can the character model consist of multiple meshes, such as a character and an ear-ring? Yes.

4: How many objects can be put on a Model
For B), polycount is the only limit you're likely to come across. For A), unknown.

5: Will those objects auto bend with the Rig?
For B), no, they have to be rigged just as any other part of the character would. They will follow the rig, but not automatically.
For A), unknown.

6: is there some kind of Anti clipping thing that i'm not aware of, so that the wings(either whole, or multiple objects) will not look like crap in engine
No, but there's ways to get around this. Custom animations will be the most important one, some simple physics animations (like the ones used for rabbit ears) would be another.


7: will clipping object into the main model make sense in attempting to make it blend in with textures etc? or will it look messy and disorganized
Situational, but it probably can work if done well. Some objects will look messy, objects designed to fit with the characters should work pretty well.
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Re: Ageshero' The Avian Project:Concepts & Modeling(?)

Postby ageshero » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:54 pm

The bush idea by shiny gem sounded pretty good of an idea, the problem with that is, is that his arms are going to be moving all over the place, and i dont see many ways his wings are going to hold integrity. Lol where there is a will, there is a way i suppose.
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1: ive heard of normals, and seen them at work, but i have no idea how to add them on to a flat surface let alone a complicated model.

2: Why triangles and not quads, Does it matter?

3-4-5: So can my model be more than one object-or-mesh, and be imported still as one single piece, and also be animated the same as it would be, if the whole thing were a sing piece? (If so, any tips or pointers would be helpful.)

(if anyone has any input on past or present questions, its all appreciated, different points of view are priceless)
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Some other stuff:

Right now the biggest problem obviously is the wings, and on whether they will work or not, and i kind of want to plan ahead to see if thats possible or not.

There's multiple ways of trying to get it to work im sure but my current thoughts are:

1: go with the original concept as close as possible and make a 3 feather types. and then link a ton together to create the wing span. (id hole wit wouldn't come out to thin looking, i don't want it to look like paper. The wings would come out from the back to the forearms and be rigged with the arms i would think. and maybe have some jiggle physics.

2: making a head that connects to a single mesh of feathers on the back and arms. Maybe a few added feathers for detail. rigged accordingly. probably physical as i would hope.

3: make a different concept of the wing span as it gets shorter the closer it gets to the fore arm

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Image

There's some ideas of the construction. let me know what you think might work best. (though i love the original concept alot, both are pretty neat.)

Maybe adding bones to the wings, 1 or 2 in the same or different places. Im thinking either the elbow or the middle of the upper arm. or both.

or something like this

Image
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Re: Ageshero' The Avian Project:Concepts & Modeling(?)

Postby Korban3 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:56 pm

I has internetz.

But honestly my fox and raptor weren't that great. The textures weren't nice and they had no appropriate normal maps
The otters aren't bad looking though. Not that they're usable or anything :|
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Re: Ageshero' The Avian Project:Concepts & Modeling(?)

Postby ageshero » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:05 pm

Well i have never ever textured a model before, ever. unless in game in Secondlife counts, (Which it doesnt, lol)

PLease add input if you can =D textureing and figuring the wings out is probably the hardest part. art wise with the base model, i can probably push it to what i want it to look like. unless i screw some faces up and cant repair the model lol.

Your input is totally welcomed, if not needed for some base knowledge.
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Re: Ageshero' The Avian Project:Concepts & Modeling(?)

Postby Korban3 » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:16 am

Hmm, I wouldn't do the feathers as separate things. I would start of just making a wing blank, kind of like a coin or a cookie cutout. Then I would just grab some of the vertices along the edge that is to have feathers extend of and pull them out to give triangley polygons that can be textured to look like feathers. It's not very beautiful or elegant, but it works for an early mod stage. They would also be a pain in the arse to texture using Sculptris, so I'd recommend a 2D method there.
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Re: Ageshero' The Avian Project:Concepts & Modeling(?)

Postby ageshero » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:34 am

That sound like it would be a good idea.
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Okay, so the current plan, Start box modeling (probably) The actual body of the avian itself. im probably going to do the best i can to make it mostly one piece, including some feathers that hang over the skin parts on the hands a feet, and the claws.

Im kind of unsure when i want to get the wings in there, obviously early if i want it to be a whole model, but that may not be necessary if multiple objects can work in game.

Ill give the model more depth and appeal when it comes to defining where things end buy pushing in and out in the areas like the cuticles of the claws and such, or where the feathers stop.

I do want some actual feather detail actually on the model, but from what i know i really want to apply Normal mapping if i can figure it out. But i believe that can only be done once the actual textures are fully completed and applied?

IF anyone has some good feather pictures and links for textures, or textures themselves, please reference links if you can.

Your kind of helping me build it =D Maybe ill have a cool little credits thing thanking the wolfire forums. lol
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