Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows

Anything related to Wolfire Games and/or its products
Merqos
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:44 pm

Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows

Post by Merqos » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:18 pm

Merqos:

So here is my my idea! Bow and arrows! I`ve seen most of his videos and i always wanted to help him, to make the game go further in the combat experience.
I really love this game for its realistic combat experience, so i thought "why not add some more weapons?" (to go further with the combat experience!).
You might think "Bow and arrows would be more difficult for the player (when the enemy has bow and arrows, and you have no weapons)".
What if i said we could do it more interesting/ exiting and not that difficult for the player, as long he don`t stand still. By that i mean:
1. The enemy need to find you (if he sees you or he hear you by jumping around like a rabbit).
2. when he aim at you, it takes time to charge and stuff. (to do it easier for you to get cover)
3. If the player runs or rolls the enemy have less chance to hit you.
4. When he hit you, you will either die (if he hit you in the face, heart or stomach) or he will hurt knee or arms. (You need to left click (the attack button) to take the arrow out, if not, the player will die in a few moments.)

- jdturner11 Wrote: With the arrow head being the only cutting surface, with a much smaller weight/edge than the knife, it could act as a wounding system with an extreme unlikeliness for instant death, only at high velocity and lethal affliction areas.


The main player controls are were simple right now. The normal combat controls are left (Attack) and right (Defend). When you pick up the Bow by pressing "e" or press "b" the controls changes. Now, when you have the bow in your arm, you can now right click to aim and left click to shoot. If you hold the left mouse-stick, the arrow will go further and straighter. When right-clicking you can see where you are going to shoot.

If you could add the Bow and arrows. You should make them look poorly made. (like: Branches and flint (Arrow) And for the Bow: Big Branch with rope). If you think this is a interesting Idea, i would be happy to get some information soon. I also made some drawings from (I am a bad drawer) if you are interested.

I hope you liked the idea! I hope you could help me, to make this better :D !
Last edited by Merqos on Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:28 pm, edited 5 times in total.

User avatar
SteelRaven7
Posts: 681
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:02 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows (full tutori

Post by SteelRaven7 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:37 pm

You should totally post your drawings! That'd be very nice :D.

Merqos
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:44 pm

Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows (full tutori

Post by Merqos » Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:32 pm

SteelRaven7 wrote:You should totally post your drawings! That'd be very nice :D.
Hehe, I will, soon!
But as I said, I am a bad drawer! ;) I have alrady made the/ some drawings, but I will re-make them, so you can actually see what it is. It is just some basic drawings, like "How to make easy Bows and arows, and make them cooler hust with some few addons".

Themap
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:34 pm
Location: Oporto, Portugal

Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows (full tutori

Post by Themap » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:56 pm

Not trying to hate on you or anyone in particular ,Merqos, but that idea has been brought up so many times that every once in a while when somebody makes a post about it i just roll over my eyes and enter a rage (yup...)

Long story made short, it would actually become a two edged sword, meaning it would be way too easy on the player to kill enemies and also way too hard to evade the arrows
If you take a look at the knife throwing in Overgrowth 9 times outta 10 you hit a fatality with a single blade (not finished yet, but still)
Lastly, my personal belief is that it would feel out of place in OG combat, which is supposed to be fast and furious, to have to load a bow and just kill everyone at a distance

( i need to take a breath now xD)

Merqos
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:44 pm

Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows (full tutori

Post by Merqos » Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:31 pm

Themap wrote:Not trying to hate on you or anyone in particular ,Merqos, but that idea has been brought up so many times that every once in a while when somebody makes a post about it i just roll over my eyes and enter a rage (yup...)

Long story made short, it would actually become a two edged sword, meaning it would be way too easy on the player to kill enemies and also way too hard to evade the arrows
If you take a look at the knife throwing in Overgrowth 9 times outta 10 you hit a fatality with a single blade (not finished yet, but still)
Lastly, my personal belief is that it would feel out of place in OG combat, which is supposed to be fast and furious, to have to load a bow and just kill everyone at a distance

( i need to take a breath now xD)
I understand you, I actually do! It will be alot easier for the player itself to use bow and arrows. But My Idea was to do Bow and arrows harder/ funnier for the player. And when you make a costum map, you can choose by yourself if you want bow and arrows or sword, knife and so on. So it is realy up to you! :D .

Just imagineate how fun it would be to jump in slow-mo over an enemy, and then aim and shoot the guy. (not always you need to shoot from a distance)

P.s: This was actually not my idea to post it here, it was John! ;)

jdturner11
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:42 pm

Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows (full tutori

Post by jdturner11 » Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:58 pm

I also see this as reasonable in terms of sentient animal people that have developed weaponry, who would obviously come across archery as an extension of throwing weapons. But as the above poster stated, with knife throwing accurate as it is, I fear the bow and arrow would become an even longer range 'jumpkick'.

I'd like to see where the devs go with accuracy in thrown weapons before bows become viable. They did state that they'd start with perfect precision and work their way from there, so I'm sure the matrix bunny will become extinct. I admit bow and arrow would be cool, though. I also adore your idea of clicking to remove arrows and different killshot areas, that's brilliant.

It'd be very easy to see this taking shape in an Overgrowth state where there is protection for our furry fighters and a distant killshot being much less likely. Perhaps only giving one arrow that needs to be retrieved, branching off the logic that it'd be doubtful arrows would stay in the quiver from all of that jumping and backflipping :P. With the arrow head being the only cutting surface, with a much smaller weight/edge than the knife, it could act as a wounding system with an extreme unlikeliness for instant death, only at high velocity and lethal affliction areas.


But then I don't know how aiming would integrate into gameplay that's already so different from traditional games. I'm just spouting off ideas like a mad man, I suppose.

Themap
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:34 pm
Location: Oporto, Portugal

Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows (full tutori

Post by Themap » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:41 am

The way I see it , there's a really thin line between awesomeness and complete and utter failure when it comes to bow and arrows

Yes it would be cool if implemented correctly and according to the gameplay the devs are looking for, but it just seems a little bit uncertain to me when it comes to the map design in OG(it doesn't make any sense to kill an enemy who is 1 meter ahead of you with an arrow when you could easily just use a knife)

Merqos
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:44 pm

Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows (full tutori

Post by Merqos » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:49 pm

Themap wrote:The way I see it , there's a really thin line between awesomeness and complete and utter failure when it comes to bow and arrows

Yes it would be cool if implemented correctly and according to the gameplay the devs are looking for, but it just seems a little bit uncertain to me when it comes to the map design in OG(it doesn't make any sense to kill an enemy who is 1 meter ahead of you with an arrow when you could easily just use a knife)
The topic says itself. It says "BIG IDEA, BUT HARD TO MAKE".
Remember that this is still an alpha! So the game is still under progress. And this is just an Idea! So i would be pleased if you could help Wolfire/ me, making this Idea much better!
- Jdturner11, had some good Ideas with the arrows. (look at the comment above you ;) )

I don`t see the game as a shooting game, but as a combat game. Like you see it. And weapons are not the "Main" wepon, you use your hands (most of the time, hehe).
That way I see swords and throwing knife as add-ons. Why Can`t Bow and arrows be an add-on? Doesn’t you like to discover new things in Overgrowth? :D

Merqos
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:44 pm

Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows (full tutori

Post by Merqos » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:56 pm

jdturner11 wrote:I also see this as reasonable in terms of sentient animal people that have developed weaponry, who would obviously come across archery as an extension of throwing weapons. But as the above poster stated, with knife throwing accurate as it is, I fear the bow and arrow would become an even longer range 'jumpkick'.

I'd like to see where the devs go with accuracy in thrown weapons before bows become viable. They did state that they'd start with perfect precision and work their way from there, so I'm sure the matrix bunny will become extinct. I admit bow and arrow would be cool, though. I also adore your idea of clicking to remove arrows and different killshot areas, that's brilliant.

It'd be very easy to see this taking shape in an Overgrowth state where there is protection for our furry fighters and a distant killshot being much less likely. Perhaps only giving one arrow that needs to be retrieved, branching off the logic that it'd be doubtful arrows would stay in the quiver from all of that jumping and backflipping :P. With the arrow head being the only cutting surface, with a much smaller weight/edge than the knife, it could act as a wounding system with an extreme unlikeliness for instant death, only at high velocity and lethal affliction areas.


But then I don't know how aiming would integrate into gameplay that's already so different from traditional games. I'm just spouting off ideas like a mad man, I suppose.

I really like the arrow Idea off yours, I really do! This is a big Idea, and it is easier to make this better if someone helps Wolfire/ me by sending Ideas to this Big project! :D

Thanks alot! Maybe Your Idea will be in the game? :D
Last edited by Merqos on Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows (full tutori

Post by Endoperez » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:31 am

Merqos wrote:That way I see swords and throwing knife as add-ons. Why Can`t Bow and arrows be an add-on? Doesn’t you like to discover new things in Overgrowth? :D
Because bows can kill an enemy for no risk. Melee and melee weapons are risky in Overgrowth. If you are hurt and there is a bow, you no longer feel like you're screwed unless you play perfectly. Big difference.

User avatar
Korban3
Posts: 4146
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 9:14 pm
Location: 42nd St E, Hell

Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows (full tutori

Post by Korban3 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:42 am

Actually, the weapons are not in any way an add-on to the game.
Their a huge tactical modifier. Would you go into a fight against 3 guards who all have big swords? The only method I would consider here is silently killing one and taking his weapon.
The other methods would involve either using stealth to kill them all, in order to avoid the conflict all together. The next would be to run in and fight them all directly.
However, the first of those two would mostly be brought on by the presence of weaponry in the first place, and so the weapons have already become a tactical factor. In the second, you're almost entirely screwed.

Use of weapons was huge in Lugaru, on both sides and it is currently the same way in OG. They give you an advantage when you have them, until you throw that knife. Then you have no knife. And if the enemy has them, you often need to reconsider your tactics.

TL;DR
The knives and swords of OG are integral to the combat and how each encounter plays out. Adding in bows will be in no way, just as the blades and such, an add-on. It would inherently afflict gameplay strategies and that's why it's so hard to balance bows in a melee oriented game.

Merqos
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:44 pm

Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows (full tutori

Post by Merqos » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:17 am

Endoperez wrote:
Merqos wrote:That way I see swords and throwing knife as add-ons. Why Can`t Bow and arrows be an add-on? Doesn’t you like to discover new things in Overgrowth? :D
Because bows can kill an enemy for no risk. Melee and melee weapons are risky in Overgrowth. If you are hurt and there is a bow, you no longer feel like you're screwed unless you play perfectly. Big difference.
I see you like to use meele, i personally like to use hands. U see? You are the chooser of weapons. If you like to take the risk, you do it. But if you want a sword or meele weapon, use that instead. If bow and arrow ruinds your gameplay, don`t use it. (If the Idea go so far ;) )

The idea from jdturner11 with the arrows Do have a risk! "With the arrow head being the only cutting surface, with a much smaller weight/edge than the knife, it could act as a wounding system with an extreme unlikeliness for instant death, only at high velocity and lethal affliction areas." So if you hit the enemy, the will go after you (go after the arrow have been spoted).

Merqos
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:44 pm

Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows (full tutori

Post by Merqos » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:31 am

Korban3 wrote:Actually, the weapons are not in any way an add-on to the game.
Their a huge tactical modifier. Would you go into a fight against 3 guards who all have big swords? The only method I would consider here is silently killing one and taking his weapon.
The other methods would involve either using stealth to kill them all, in order to avoid the conflict all together. The next would be to run in and fight them all directly.
However, the first of those two would mostly be brought on by the presence of weaponry in the first place, and so the weapons have already become a tactical factor. In the second, you're almost entirely screwed.

Use of weapons was huge in Lugaru, on both sides and it is currently the same way in OG. They give you an advantage when you have them, until you throw that knife. Then you have no knife. And if the enemy has them, you often need to reconsider your tactics.

TL;DR
The knives and swords of OG are integral to the combat and how each encounter plays out. Adding in bows will be in no way, just as the blades and such, an add-on. It would inherently afflict gameplay strategies and that's why it's so hard to balance bows in a melee oriented game.
I see you like to use tactics, I also like to use tactics, because I much likely use my hands, it`s funnier. I don`t like one kill with sword/ throwing with meeles. Tactics could be more important with bow and arrow. Most of the people consider their self with Bow and arrows, but think about the enemies. I will take your Idea of the "three enemies". What if the enemies had bow and arrows instead? You only have hands.

Choose your tactics wisely! ;)

User avatar
Endoperez
Posts: 5668
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:41 am
Location: cold and dark and lovely Finland

Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows (full tutori

Post by Endoperez » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:23 am

Merqos wrote:
Endoperez wrote:Because bows can kill an enemy for no risk. Melee and melee weapons are risky in Overgrowth. If you are hurt and there is a bow, you no longer feel like you're screwed unless you play perfectly. Big difference.
I see you like to use meele, i personally like to use hands. U see? You are the chooser of weapons. If you like to take the risk, you do it. But if you want a sword or meele weapon, use that instead. If bow and arrow ruinds your gameplay, don`t use it. (If the Idea go so far ;) )
Melee is usually used about close combat. Weapons, no weapons, boxing, wrestling, it's all melee. The original meaning is a confused fight between several people, such as a bar room brawl. I like unarmed at least as much as I like weapons, possibly more.

"Don't use it" doesn't work. An unbalanced game doesn't become balanced by saying "don't use it". The game has to be balanced to the the power level of the players. Diablo games are balanced so that the players will (usually) have to use potions. It isn't a game for players who don't want to use potions. Telling someone who doesn't like potions "well don't use potions then" is like saying "your character should die".

User avatar
Korban3
Posts: 4146
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 9:14 pm
Location: 42nd St E, Hell

Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows (full tutori

Post by Korban3 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:09 pm

That is true along with that fact that if there are bows and I refuse to use them, I'm not at a massive disadvantage. The enemy can pick me off and I have no way to retaliate until I get closer, if I can.
Just because I don't use them doesn't mean they aren't going to effect my gameplay.
That's what I meant by them no being an addon at all. The weapons in OG constantly effect what choices the player will make. You can't just ignore that the dog in front you has a broadsword. You have to change up your gameplay somehow to compensate. The same would go for bows, mostly that if they were not executed perfectly, the player would spend all of their time trying to stay in cover and fight off melee enemies too. It would become frustrating.

Post Reply