Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows

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underthedeep
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Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows

Post by underthedeep » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:15 pm

well not at the idea more so just the name.

I don't dislike the idea at all really, i think it would be pretty neato actually to see a bow in the game.

in a fan mod though not in the actual game.

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Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows

Post by Korban3 » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:36 am

Seeing as the new alpha has introduced the ability to create and destroy objects on the fly, I wouldn't be surprised if a bow gets modded in soon. Also makes me wish the alpha was working for me so I could make my gun mod ;n;

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Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows

Post by PaulXavier » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:29 am

Bows would make a great addition to the game but it would require a rework of this skeletal health system. This game has potential for an incredible amount of immersion, and bows would create realistic encounters, but we need to let this game become what it is for now. That is obviously a large enough task already. I think this game is going to become a new model and engine for a whole new generation of games. Hey maybe the issue of bows could be overcome by reducing their accuracy?

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Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows

Post by Anton » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:54 am

PaulXavier wrote:Bows would make a great addition to the game but it would require a rework of this skeletal health system. This game has potential for an incredible amount of immersion, and bows would create realistic encounters, but we need to let this game become what it is for now. That is obviously a large enough task already. I think this game is going to become a new model and engine for a whole new generation of games. Hey maybe the issue of bows could be overcome by reducing their accuracy?
Just a quick note, there is no skeletal health system in Overgrowth. That unfortunately is a misconception made popular by a youtube video let's play. If you go and watch the official videos, or read through the blog about the combat system, you will see that damage is still based on a health bar (although unseen) and the concept of temporary vs permanent health.

As for accuracy being a limiting factor, that doesn't really play into the rest of the game, which is primarily skill and situational based. Basically, it sends the message that your input has no control over how well you are able to shoot your bow.

That being said, you can expect to see mods of bows and arrows, but it will most likely not be part of the vanilla game.

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Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows

Post by Advance123 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:33 pm

I don't think bows and arrows suit OG for many of the reasons already stated, but I wouldn't mind a mod obviously. What I am for, however, is the general use of a bow being in the vanilla game.

Ranged combat is already in the game in the form of throwing your weapon, but that's different to a bow and arrow because the thrown weapon can be used again and again, and by the person you throw the weapon at; when you throw you have to worry about it missing and the opponent picking up the weapon. A bow and arrow eliminates that. A way you could have disposable weapons for ranged use could be in the form of either a returning boomerang, an idea that wasn't welcomed too well in my thread, or small throwable weapons that could break if they miss, like shuriken or kunai. Perhaps in the game you could carry a certain pouch that could hold up to 20 or so shuriken, and each time you press the button that usually sheaths a sword, you would take out a shuriken, and just throw it normally.

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Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows

Post by CardinalSmoke » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:36 pm

Old topic but interesting nonetheless. I have some ideas.

As someone who practices archery IRL with a medieval-style bow (Turkish), I think it could be introduced to the Lugaru universe without breaking gameplay. One just needs limitations which make sense. Obviously, if bows were overpowered it wouldn't work. But how could they be except en masse or in the hands of a master? Archery is HARD! The following makes enough sense to me:

1. Unpopularity. If archery is made relatively new to this world, rather than a long-honored tradition, skilled archers would be rare. Incredible accuracy is simply not commonplace; bows in war would only be effective fired in volleys toward a general area (just like real history). Likewise, master bowyers / fletchers would be few and far between, so the performance of archers is limited further still by their lack of refined equipment. There could be cultural resistance too; perhaps Wolves would never deign to use one, feeling it a coward's weapon.

2. Opportunity costs. Nocking and aiming takes precious time, during which enemies can get closer. Holding a drawn arrow drains stamina. Trust me, archery is tiring on bones and muscles. Using a bow requires access to ammunition, which is scarce in a non-industrialized world. Arrows get lost, broken, and there's only so many one can carry. Having a quiver means less room for other equipment. And if one became a master archer, surely their life was dedicated to it, so they must be a substandard warrior due to lack of melee training.

3. Armor. Too bad for those who don't wear it, but a layer of tough material is all it takes to render arrows useless. As long as crossbows don't exist, projectile velocity is limited to the strength of the archer, so it won't take a thick shield to nullify impact.

4. Crazy ninja tactics. The game needn't be conservative regarding warrior reflexes. An elite melee fighter might catch an arrow in mid-flight by hand, or deflect it with a blade. Of course, by the same reasoning there could be elite archers capable of shooting 3 targets between the eyes in a split second. But we're operating on the premise that archery is young, thus such a feat with a bow is yet unheard of.

So when the player encounters ranged enemies, first of all there won't be too many at once (at least not with superior aim). Dodging and taking cover should usually be enough to close in or let ammo be exhausted, at which point the close quarters battle is easily won. And for tough ones, armor and special tactics come into play.

If the player attempts to use a bow as primary combat technique, they may find themselves overwhelmed by enemies closing in. They will need to replenish ammo somehow. And scoring hits should be hard. When the player aims, their bow could wobble softly so that timing is key to accuracy. And the actual trajectory could vary a tiny bit every shot so it doesn't feel like machined precision. If that sounds frustrating, try real archery and see how difficult it truly is. Personally I wouldn't want a game to simulate it as if it were easy.

But Overgrowth doesn't need bows, as it's cool enough with just swords and knives. I don't at all mind a lack of archery. But the concept of including it while still preserving combat feel, doesn't seem too far fetched...

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Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:19 pm

My problem with this NPCs

1: The new update has them catching knives I DOUBT an arrow would make a difference

2: They would NOT even try to dodge them it's and issue

The tactical factor is solved by: Don't make them instant kills have the huddle in pain the take the arrow out and the THROW the arrow like a javelin at the player maybe killing them. It removes the OP factor and adds stress to the fact that the player NEEDS to kill the enemy or, on accident give them a powerful ranged weapon. The bow should break after 4 or 5 uses, the players will then wait and wait until they know they will kill their target or else suffer the consequences. The player should only be able to take 2 arrows with them, it removes ANY advantage of trial and error tactics.

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Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows

Post by last » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:27 am

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:The bow should break after 4 or 5 uses, the players will then wait and wait until they know they will kill their target or else suffer the consequences. The player should only be able to take 2 arrows with them, it removes ANY advantage of trial and error tactics.
This is not real, that bow brakes after using it. When bows brake then should the other weapons brake also, including swords and even armor.
Being able to take only 2 arrows isn't real also. Arrows are ammo for bows and ammo is usually stored in some type of pack. why i can't take this pack (quiver or something else, like bundle of arrows just tied together) and carry it with me, i don't know.

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Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows

Post by Endoperez » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:53 pm

Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:My problem with this NPCs

1: The new update has them catching knives I DOUBT an arrow would make a difference

2: They would NOT even try to dodge them it's and issue

The tactical factor is solved by: Don't make them instant kills have the huddle in pain the take the arrow out and the THROW the arrow like a javelin at the player maybe killing them. It removes the OP factor and adds stress to the fact that the player NEEDS to kill the enemy or, on accident give them a powerful ranged weapon. The bow should break after 4 or 5 uses, the players will then wait and wait until they know they will kill their target or else suffer the consequences. The player should only be able to take 2 arrows with them, it removes ANY advantage of trial and error tactics.
Things that separate bows from javelins:
bows fire farther (several dozen meters at the very least)
it's easy to carry several arrows with you, and you can keep using it as long as you have arrows

You suggest something that can be thrown back at you, breaks after it's been used a couple of times and can only be carried in limited numbers. You know what can be thrown back at you, breaks when thrown, and historically soldiers only carried about 2 of them at once? Pilum, the roman javelin. It works with pretty much all thrown spears though.

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Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows

Post by Count Roland » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:01 am

PLUMBATA! PLUMBATA!

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Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:21 pm

Endoperez wrote:
Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:My problem with this NPCs

1: The new update has them catching knives I DOUBT an arrow would make a difference

2: They would NOT even try to dodge them it's and issue

The tactical factor is solved by: Don't make them instant kills have the huddle in pain the take the arrow out and the THROW the arrow like a javelin at the player maybe killing them. It removes the OP factor and adds stress to the fact that the player NEEDS to kill the enemy or, on accident give them a powerful ranged weapon. The bow should break after 4 or 5 uses, the players will then wait and wait until they know they will kill their target or else suffer the consequences. The player should only be able to take 2 arrows with them, it removes ANY advantage of trial and error tactics.
Things that separate bows from javelins:
bows fire farther (several dozen meters at the very least)
it's easy to carry several arrows with you, and you can keep using it as long as you have arrows

You suggest something that can be thrown back at you, breaks after it's been used a couple of times and can only be carried in limited numbers. You know what can be thrown back at you, breaks when thrown, and historically soldiers only carried about 2 of them at once? Pilum, the roman javelin. It works with pretty much all thrown spears though.
Currently you can sheathe 2 weapons and carry 2 more if the bow is a weapon I have to keep out and I have to load the arrows manually maybe 2
with a quiver maybe 15?
also how would this fit into the lore? I mean Rabbits don't forge swords (hence the lack of rabbit weapons and wolfs don't use weapons, only dogs and cats and maybe rats) but we haven't heard about bows
also maybe this weapon should be exclusive to NPCs and not accessible by players.

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Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows

Post by Phoenixwarrior141 » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:23 pm

last wrote:
Phoenixwarrior141 wrote:The bow should break after 4 or 5 uses, the players will then wait and wait until they know they will kill their target or else suffer the consequences. The player should only be able to take 2 arrows with them, it removes ANY advantage of trial and error tactics.
This is not real, that bow brakes after using it. When bows brake then should the other weapons brake also, including swords and even armor.
Being able to take only 2 arrows isn't real also. Arrows are ammo for bows and ammo is usually stored in some type of pack. why i can't take this pack (quiver or something else, like bundle of arrows just tied together) and carry it with me, i don't know.
Prolonged use of anything will cause some damage,
currently if I have the bow out and have 2 arrows sheathed, that is all I can carry.

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Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows

Post by Endoperez » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:03 am

Prolonged use of anything will cause some damage,
That is true, but it's irrelevant. A bow won't break after 4 or 5 arrows.

Currently you can sheathe 2 weapons and carry 2 more if the bow is a weapon I have to keep out and I have to load the arrows manually maybe 2
Yes, 1 bow and 2 or 3 arrows, using the current system. But if your ammunition is going to be that limited, there are all kinds of problems. Can you name any game where you have a ranged weapon with maximum ammunition of 2, and it's fun? I can't. Maybe the original Thief, I don't remember the details.
also how would this fit into the lore?
Mechanics > lore. Making a game that's fun to play is better than making a game where the lore makes sense. If you want to write lore, write a book.
also maybe this weapon should be exclusive to NPCs and not accessible by players.
If you don't notice the NPC with the bow and he kills you, it will feel extremely unfair. If you do notice them, sneaking up to them will be a fun challenge... but is that any different from sneaking up to any enemy armed with a ranged weapon? Do enemies armed with bows make the game more fun than enemies armed with throwing spears?

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Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows

Post by shayanjameel08 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:27 am

I really like the arrow Idea off yours, I reallt do! This is a big Idea, and it is easier to make this better if someone helps Wolfire/ me by sending Ideas to this Big project!

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Re: Big Idea, but hard to make - Bow and Arrows

Post by halzoid » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:49 am

DO IT DO IT DO IT!

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