Now for a word

Zantalos · Post by **Zantalos** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:42 pm

invertin wrote:
Zantalos wrote:player feel uneasy that he may be going down the lame story path and he should just quit and restart to go down the other.
If you do that when you play open-ended games then you're doing it wrong.

You do the lame ways first then get the good ones!

You do the lame one and then you say, wow this was really lame and you stop. Or maybe you choose to do what you thought was the lame one first but it was actually the cool one and now if you go back just to play the lame ending you're dumb.

invertin · Post by **invertin** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:56 pm

On every game I try to beat it every way possible.

For bragging rights.

GaGrin · Post by **GaGrin** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:33 pm

If we can't effect the plot it ain't an RPG. End of discussion.

I'm not saying that L2 has to contain a branching story either (though I personally would perfer it if it did - even the original Lugaru had an alternative ending planned) I just feel that if you're going to let us run about and get involved when and where we like we should see the influence our choices make on the plot.

This is a really important element for me and while I'm sure I'll but this game in either case I know that I would get much more from it if I knew that the route I was taking through the game was actually being influenced by my decisions as a player.

Plus it adds replay value which is never a bad thing (and an excellent selling point too).

Zantalos · Post by **Zantalos** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:21 pm

I don't want to say that a branching story line is a bad thing, but I I'm not saying that if Lugaru 2 doesn't have a branching storyline, it can't be an rpg. Most rpg games don't have a branching storyline, if you put them in there, it wouldn't make it better. Zelda doesn't need a branching story line, Final Fantasy doesn't need a branching storyline, God of War, Resident Evil, Okami, Grand Theft Auto, these rpg games have great stories that don't have to be open to multiple outcomes to add replay. Some games like KoTOR need to have the multiple endings, because forcing you to be evil at the end or forcing you to be good at the end would mess up the game.

The kind of plot influencing storyline that GaGrin is talking about is much like the way the Fallout games are made. These games have really one ending, there's an evil boss in the beginning of the game that you don't realy know about and you kill him at the end.. something gets blown up. What I liked is how you have this really long journey to get to this boss and on the way you're doing things to get you there like fixing a nuclear reactor for some ghouls or wiping out a raider base for some vault dwellers. These little things don't create a branching storyline or separate mission set at the end, the main quest stays the same, some people in the game will like you a lot more, others will hate you completely, you could even get married. But all the gigantic effects happen at the end when you beat the game, it tells you what happens years later, what all your actions have amounted to. I thought this way was really cool. It wasn't like KoTOR where all you did was say yes or no at the end and then watch one of three different endings, your actions were things you did really early or late or whatever time you did them in the game and you couldn't change them at the end. This was one of those game where I actually went back from the beginning and played the game completely different to the end and it was fun.

Lugaru is new enough, it can be whatever, it can be like Metal Gear Solid and have branching endings, or Fallout and have open endings, or like Zelda and have one ending. It's probably a really important part of the game, but it can be great no mater what it is. I don't know what kind of game David is thinking about.

Ultimatum479 · Post by **Ultimatum479** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:48 pm

GaGrin wrote:If we can't effect the plot it ain't an RPG. End of discussion.

That's completely wrong by _both_ interpretations of that statement.

BunnyWithStick · Post by **BunnyWithStick** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:58 pm

Ultimatum479 wrote:
GaGrin wrote:If we can't effect the plot it ain't an RPG. End of discussion.
That's completely wrong by _both_ interpretations of that statement.

It's meant to be completely wrong. What's your point?

GaGrin · Post by **GaGrin** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:06 pm

Maybe my opinion on the matter differs greatly from the commonly accepted norm, but - as I stated above - roleplaying is about putting yourself in someone elses shoes and making choices that best suit that situation.

It is NOT about linear plots. I am sick and tired of people telling me Final Fantasy is an RPG. It isn't. Fallout is an RPG. Deus Ex, while far from perfect, is an RPG. Diablo is not. WoW is barely.

RPGs are about character development and plot, but they must also contain player interactions within those aspects or it is not roleplaying - its storytelling.

Final Fantasy is a narrative heavy, tactical fantasy skirmish game - with some puzzle elements.

As someone who does roleplay I get irritated by misuse of the terms. It causes confusion and misfocus. What most people think of when they think of cRPGs is powergaming; an entirely different and seperate animal.

In the end whether or not L2 is an RPG or not really doesn't matter. But misusing and abusing the terms as the gaming industry at large has mostly done causes my no end of pain as I am unable to judge if a title is going to have the depth of character I would demand from a game that claims it has rpg elements.

/rant

Ultimatum479 · Post by **Ultimatum479** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:52 pm

GaGrin wrote:Maybe my opinion on the matter differs greatly from the commonly accepted norm, but - as I stated above - roleplaying is about putting yourself in someone elses shoes and making choices that best suit that situation.

I agree entirely. Still, making minor choices along the way may not significantly affect the final outcome of an RPG, and thus multiple endings aren't always necessary in an RPG. Not everyone can change the world every time; some things will happen regardless of a character's actions. As someone who does roleplay, you should know that the only person who has that kind of power is the GM.

Most GMs will choose to allow the PCs' actions to change the plot, but that doesn't mean they have to do so.

Crill3 · Post by **Crill3** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:07 pm

I wanna be able to fake my own death, and at my funeral conspire
with the coffin, uh, coffin-getter dude to make the coffin emit some sort
of gas that will knock everyone uncouncious and me and Dude will steal
all their stuff but then I will divide his face by zero and take it all for myself
which will fund construction of the first automated musical instrument.

..

...zzzzzz

BunnyWithStick · Post by **BunnyWithStick** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:13 pm

You know there was an automated piano that played row row row your boat in some cartoon on a video back in ye olde stack over here? I'm pretty sure it has a real counterpart.

Crill3 · Post by **Crill3** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:21 pm

...Dude, I know there's self-playing instruments.

1. I am very VERY tired, and in a funny mood. This gives me the right to say anything.

2. I was talking about the Lugaru Multiverse.

The reason I wrote that that bullsh*t down is because it was plotted in my mind so quickly, which happens when I am half-asleep.

BunnyWithStick · Post by **BunnyWithStick** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:50 pm

Aaah, get away from me! *runs*

Swordarm · Post by **Swordarm** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:48 am

i was not talking about making the edler scrolls 5: lugaru, just branching missions, some npcs and trade.

GaGrin · Post by **GaGrin** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:34 pm

Ultimatum479 wrote:
GaGrin wrote:Maybe my opinion on the matter differs greatly from the commonly accepted norm, but - as I stated above - roleplaying is about putting yourself in someone elses shoes and making choices that best suit that situation.
I agree entirely. Still, making minor choices along the way may not significantly affect the final outcome of an RPG, and thus multiple endings aren't always necessary in an RPG. Not everyone can change the world every time; some things will happen regardless of a character's actions. As someone who does roleplay, you should know that the only person who has that kind of power is the GM. Most GMs will choose to allow the PCs' actions to change the plot, but that doesn't mean they have to do so.

Fair Point. However, I am also a firm believer that players should see the effects of their actions if they would reasonably have a significant knockon effect because that is part of the attraction of fantasy. I think in the end I would prefer a story I had a part in making my own, than in one I simply walked through.

Thats not to say I don't enjoy linear plots - just that a linear plot has to be that much better to keep me as entertained as one that lets me get emotionally involved because the choice is mine and not an enforced plot point.

Ink · Post by **Ink** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:31 pm

Crill3 wrote:I wanna be able to fake my own death, and at my funeral conspire
with the coffin, uh, coffin-getter dude to make the coffin emit some sort
of gas that will knock everyone uncouncious and me and Dude will steal
all their stuff but then I will divide his face by zero and take it all for myself
which will fund construction of the first automated musical instrument.

.. .. .. ...zzzzzz

I laughed out loud.
HAha! Random stuff.