Oni-like melee in Lugaru 2?

[geyser]

Taking throws out of Oni entirely would be _such_ a lame solution. v_V

Out of a specific gaming mode. Temporarily. To save on whining.
Oni-modding freedom is limited. Suggestions totally welcome

[wormguy]

Procedural animation VS canned anims. Oni has 500+ anims per character and a flawless movement scheme.
I simply haven't seen a game where basic movements are as fluid and natural-looking as in Oni. That includes L1.
As for combat moves, there are dozens per character. Yes, they're canned, but they look predictably good.
Procedural animation looks very nice. Sometimes. Like ragdolling. And sometimes it looks random. Or worse.
For the sake of the argument, let's say I've never seen it look "worse" in L1. But, not very nice, either.
I'm not saying very nice reversals didn't happen to me. I just couldn't identify them as such
The problem is that things happen so fast that I hardly have the time to appreciate the animation.
I face an enemy, I click... and the next thing I know he's flying across the screen. WTH happened?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm 99% sure that Lugaru 1 did not contain any procedural animation. It was all hand-animated by David, correct? So it would make sense if Lugaru 1's animation didn't look as fluid as Oni's which was developed by a large developer studio.

[geyser]

I was careful not to say there was procedural anims in L1 because I honestly don't know.
There might be some IK here and there, but I can't really tell since it's either fast or blurred.
And then again, I'm not sure if IK and ragdolling are to be regarded as procedural animation.
Technically, even simple things like head turning are not 100% canned but interpolated.
Wikipedia lists all 3 (basic interpolation, ragdolling, and IK) as procedural animation.

I agree that it's no surprise if (IF) Oni's "professional" animation system looks superior to L1's in places.
(however, David himself seems to doubt the fluidity of Oni's system if you watch his YT statement... )
(for the record, Bungie West was a rather small team, and there was only one character animator AFAIK)

Still, my final point in the piece you quoted is not that L1's action didn't look nice, ever, or even that it looked bad on the average.
It's just that when the action is at its nicest, it goes by way too fast for me to enjoy (all too realistic, I guess; I got mugged once).

[Zantalos]

Quite a bit of new Lugaru 2 information in this topic. [borat]Very niice![/borat]
Seems that if it goes as planned, it'll be even more awesome than previously assumed. (If that is even possible)

I don't think I'd like "Oni-like melee" in Lugaru 2.
I'm not sure where you're (geyser) coming from when you claim
Lugaru's context-sensitive combat to be "less immersive", to me it's really intense and a lot of fun.
If you play for a little while to get properly into the game, and you learn all the cool stuff you can do,
I think you'd enjoy it a bit more.
But uh, if you don't like it then I guess... you don't like it.
It's strange to me though. ;p

EDIT:
@ Zantalos: Thinking of how Oni 2 would/should look and feel, I dreamt up a gameplay philosophy very similar to Lugaru's before I became aware of David's project.
I was very excited to find an implementation of the kind of thing I had in mind. And then I was disappointed to find that it worked out differently from what I expected.
That's not the end of the story, though. The reason why I came here is that I'm still very much interested in whatever Lugaru (2) has to offer, gameplay-wise. Honest.

I think this was directed at Zaphon, I get mixed with him a lot.

Procedural animation VS canned anims. Oni has 500+ anims per character and a flawless movement scheme.
I simply haven't seen a game where basic movements are as fluid and natural-looking as in Oni. That includes L1.
As for combat moves, there are dozens per character. Yes, they're canned, but they look predictably good.
Procedural animation looks very nice. Sometimes. Like ragdolling. And sometimes it looks random. Or worse.
For the sake of the argument, let's say I've never seen it look "worse" in L1. But, not very nice, either.
I'm not saying very nice reversals didn't happen to me. I just couldn't identify them as such
The problem is that things happen so fast that I hardly have the time to appreciate the animation.
I face an enemy, I click... and the next thing I know he's flying across the screen. WTH happened?

@ U479: Don't bother recording something new if there is something already showcased on YT that makes your point.
If you mean two ragdolls colliding in midair, then no, I probably haven't encountered such situations. Show me (please).
My general grudge against ragdolling is that ragdolling characters tend to look like rag dolls, not characters

Yeah, the problem with regular old rag doll physics is that they look really plain without some kind of neat momentum or collision. Like when you run out of blood in Lugaru your guy just goes limp to the floor and you don't really know what's happening the first time it does that. But in Lugaru 2 all the animations are going to be physics based, so instead of just going limp you might hold your stab wound while you fall to the ground. It's going to look as good as a hand drawn animation (because it will be hand drawn) but it will move and fall like rag doll character would.

And yeah, Lugaru 1 uses inverse kinematics too. You can't really see it with the rabbit's feet together stance but it's there. It's a lot more apparent with the wolf character, he spreads his legs far apart so you can see it really well on the side of a hill.

[geyser]

Confused the 2 Zs, indeed. Short-term memory failure (original post(er)s can't be seen during an edit).
In the future, I'll just call both of you "Z"... to avoid confusion

So much for L1's IK: thanks Zantalos. Will check out the wolves first chance I get
Ragdolling for limp bodies should move OK as long the proper joint constraints are set.
The plain looks have to do with the models, and indeed with the lack of death effects.
Maybe if would help it the body twitched spasmodically as/after it tumbles down.
Not sure what holding a wound while dying has to do with physics: that's IK if anything.

Talking of hand-drawn effects (and completely off-topic): care to make Lugaru 2 look like Okami?
http://www.gametrailers.com/cgplayer.php?id=9412

[Ultimatum479]

@ U479: Don't bother recording something new if there is something already showcased on YT that makes your point.

Looked around on YouTube and couldn't find any examples...I think I have an idea on how to record a movie of this without lagging things up ridiculously, so I'll try to make and record it on the weekend. Prepare for a vid that simultaneously displays how stupidly broken throws are in Oni, the glitches of non-physics-based combat for the attacker, and the glitches of non-physics-based combat for the defender. Ever heard of Backbreaker Spam?

Edit: Nevermind! Found it! Check it out: around 00:35, you see a decent example of backbreaker spam, although it's much more funny when you link four or five in a row. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr1srw9upmM Notice how the enemy behind Konoko is teleported in front of her.

[geyser]

Thanks a lot for not recording a laggy video just to make a disruptive point. There has been more than enough of it already.
The throw glitches are issues related to the environment. With a simple environment and a little interpolation, throws look OK.
It's not so much about physics as about kinematics. The relative character placement is adjusted before the throw takes place.
I have no idea why the engine is so surprisingly approximate as for the ranges where the target character can be.
It seems to happen less often (if at all) in KonokoPayne, so hopefully it's yet another bug that we'll be able to fix.

One thing I don't understand is why you keep calling it spam
If anything, Backbreaker Spam is the tactics you suggested here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr1srw9upmM

It's basically the same as David's PPK Spam. Every game has one or two techniques that are relatively easy to pull out.
The purpose is usually that those who don't master the more complex combos still can enjoy a fight. My philosophy.
Once you've mastered the advanced techniques, it's a bit silly to spam those deliberately "unfair" basic techniques.

Ways to complete challenges like the one you detailed in your comment are of course less pointless than PPK spam.
Still, a "perfect" walkthrough of the boss battle is contrary to my idea of an action game. I don't like those challenges

Since we're talking boss battles and vidmaster style, I'm going on with the Serious Konoko podcast.
The title of the last episode is, quite simply, "Fight!": http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=wBDyTBnPwDU

[Ultimatum479]

I called it spam because it was a pair of consecutive backbreakers, unlike the vid you posted in which they're far apart. When you're fighting a lot of enemies, it's easy to set up a link such that you can chain literally half a dozen or more backbreakers back-to-back (pun unintended at the time of typing, seriously), and that's backbreaker spam.

[geyser]

That's flood, not spam

[Ultimatum479]

...Call it whatever you want, but it's also spam.

[wormguy]

Topic split due to a ridiculous and pointless argument.

If anyone cares to continue this discussion, please do.

[Colicedus]

Never played Oni... But I know I will Oweni all your asses at it because I am Colicedus and I slaughter people with my chainsaw!

[Crill3]

Col, go play Oni.

[Colicedus]

Link the Demo please?

[Crill3]

Damn you, FilePlanet!
The best I can find is at
http://www.fileshack.com/file.x/1795/Oni+Demo+-+Mac
Has a queue for free users.