Wolfire Games Forums

Endoperez wrote:Speaking of sword stuff, I just saw a most beautiful martial arts performance video I've seen in a long, long time. In it, a Finnish man performs Primo Assalto of the two-handed sword, a flourish (or form, or a series of movements in specific order) of the Italian master Achille Marozzo.

Click here to see the video. Be sure to enable the HQ button for high quality. Make sure to watch the whole video - while the flourish is the same in each performance, the swords are different, and the last one is the most impressive one by far.

That is definitely an amazing flourish. I'm shocked by how heavy the swords look, and the amount of time it really takes to swing such a big sword. I'd like to see what the impact from such a sword looks like. (I guess I'll just have to keep watching his videos )

Advanced halberd techniques:




Pollaxe techniques in armour




Spear vs spear, a countermove against a specific block
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbm1Mvpm7ng#t=0m48s

The length of staves and spears can be changed by adjusting the grip

ariehl wrote:

Endoperez wrote:Speaking of sword stuff, I just saw a most beautiful martial arts performance video I've seen in a long, long time. In it, a Finnish man performs Primo Assalto of the two-handed sword, a flourish (or form, or a series of movements in specific order) of the Italian master Achille Marozzo.

Click here to see the video. Be sure to enable the HQ button for high quality. Make sure to watch the whole video - while the flourish is the same in each performance, the swords are different, and the last one is the most impressive one by far.

That is definitely an amazing flourish. I'm shocked by how heavy the swords look, and the amount of time it really takes to swing such a big sword. I'd like to see what the impact from such a sword looks like. (I guess I'll just have to keep watching his videos )

The Size is an illusion, such swords usually weigh around 3 lbs. Demonstrations are usually much slower than the actual movement would be, he might be at half, or even a quarter of the actual speed he could pull off, or he could do it even faster.

And Speaking of the ARMA, Endoperez, they also have a sizable library of manuals and texts for the medieval and Renaissance styles, In case the devs feel like looking at it http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm

They can sometimes be hard to interpret without a master, but that's pretty much every book on something new; nothing beats true experience

Aleol wrote:And Speaking of the ARMA, Endoperez, they also have a sizable library of manuals and texts for the medieval and Renaissance styles, In case the devs feel like looking at it http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm

They can sometimes be hard to interpret without a master, but that's pretty much every book on something new; nothing beats true experience

I wouldn't trust myself to interpret the original manuals correctly. Because of that, if I were to animate something, I'd rather reference a video where someone who knows what he is doing, than a manual whose pictures might have been drawn by an artist who wasn't a fighter himself.

Aleol wrote:The Size is an illusion, such swords usually weigh around 3 lbs. Demonstrations are usually much slower than the actual movement would be, he might be at half, or even a quarter of the actual speed he could pull off, or he could do it even faster.

I understand that he was doing it slow for effect. I also study martial arts, and have been doing a lot of sword work lately with a Chinese Dao (and my personal one is particularly heavy). I think my comment was probably based more on the amount of strength he is using to keep control of the sword, which is one thing that makes the performance look so beautiful, and on the location of the spin for a two handed swords. All of the swords that I have studied with have typically been a one handed sword, and so using one hand as a fulcrum and propelling the sword with the second hand creates a spin and force that I don't get with swords I've used. But, using two hands like that is slower. You gain power and reach by sacrificing speed.

Spears!



Spears! Also a danish axe (think spear, replace sharp point with a small axehead), shieldwork, and stuff. Good for all kinds of polearms.


Also, if anyone reading this thread does sound stuff , have you ever wondered what it sounds when a mace hits a wooden shield? The video isn't very good reference, or even that interesting otherwise, but it's very hard to find anything with maces in it, and that deep THUNK sound really impressive.

Q: What does a spearman do if the other guy gets too close?
A: You can hold a spear with two arms, AND a short blade, at the same time!

1:25 and on has the spear+sword grip. Interesting stuff!

One-handed axe! This is the first time I've seen this weapon. The same group has lots of shield+sword and shield+axe stuff, and mass fights, and group training. It might be interesting for getting ideas for group AI.

ariehl wrote:

Aleol wrote:The Size is an illusion, such swords usually weigh around 3 lbs. Demonstrations are usually much slower than the actual movement would be, he might be at half, or even a quarter of the actual speed he could pull off, or he could do it even faster.

I understand that he was doing it slow for effect. I also study martial arts, and have been doing a lot of sword work lately with a Chinese Dao (and my personal one is particularly heavy). I think my comment was probably based more on the amount of strength he is using to keep control of the sword, which is one thing that makes the performance look so beautiful, and on the location of the spin for a two handed swords. All of the swords that I have studied with have typically been a one handed sword, and so using one hand as a fulcrum and propelling the sword with the second hand creates a spin and force that I don't get with swords I've used. But, using two hands like that is slower. You gain power and reach by sacrificing speed.

Owning a few of them myself, you are a little misguided in your view of two handed swords. The fulcrum effect allows the sword to move faster and more controlled. It allows you to use less force to move just as quickly, or more force to move even faster. It's Function slightly differs between different two handed swords from different areas.

Take samurai swords, the katana; It is undoubtedly a two handed sword, and weighs about the same as the swords that the man in the video was using and is probably about the same length, but its shape creates the illusion of being shorter and lighter. The biggest difference between the two is that one is curved. It's designed for slashing, meaning that where it is balanced (halfway down the blade) allows for quick successive slashes. The longswords in the video are designed for stabbing, and the shape of the guard and where the sword is balanced (1-3 inches away from the cross-guard) allows for quick parries and stabs, as well as controlled slashing.

Swords designed for one-handed use are balanced much differently than those designed for two hands. Any two-handed sword can be used with only one hand, but you sacrifice speed, power and control for a free hand, which can hold a buckler, shortsword, knife, shield, what have you.

Also, Endo, the beauty of the manuals to game developers, rather than practitioners, is that it shows the techniques, and the developer can implement it how they interpret it, it doesn't have to be perfect.

Aleol wrote:Also, Endo, the beauty of the manuals to game developers, rather than practitioners, is that it shows the techniques, and the developer can implement it how they interpret it, it doesn't have to be perfect.

The point of this thread is to provide video reference, and I've mostly stuck to historical stuff that I like because I wish to see things like this in the game. In my very personal opinion, historical attacks look better than what most developers come up on their own. While looking at the manuals will be better than not having any references at all, if there are interpretations of the manuals available, I'd rather look at the interpretations. As I said, this is just my opinion.

If you could show me a manual with lots of detailed pictures, that hasn't been adopted into videos yet, I might check it out.

The video is titled "Cat fights like rocky"... and it's surprisisingly accurate.

Aleol wrote:Owning a few of them myself, you are a little misguided in your view of two handed swords. The fulcrum effect allows the sword to move faster and more controlled. It allows you to use less force to move just as quickly, or more force to move even faster. It's Function slightly differs between different two handed swords from different areas.

Take samurai swords, the katana; It is undoubtedly a two handed sword, and weighs about the same as the swords that the man in the video was using and is probably about the same length, but its shape creates the illusion of being shorter and lighter. The biggest difference between the two is that one is curved. It's designed for slashing, meaning that where it is balanced (halfway down the blade) allows for quick successive slashes. The longswords in the video are designed for stabbing, and the shape of the guard and where the sword is balanced (which is a third down the blade from the guard) allows for quick parries and stabs, as well as controlled slashing.

Swords designed for one-handed use are balanced much differently than those designed for two hands. Any two-handed sword can be used with only one hand, but you sacrifice speed, power and control for a free hand, which can hold a buckler, shortsword, knife, shield, what have you.

I agree, I was underestimating the longsword. I think the size of the hilt seemed large in the videos, but I have changed my mind about that. My only reference to two handed weapons are my use with staves, and they are a lot longer, and we use a moving fulcrum, which changes the dynamics considerably. Also, while playing with my dao, I realized how we use the body and our arm as a fulcrum on it as well, and how it changes the characteristics of the sword when we do. (I find it all fascinating )

After the Judo throw was added in Overgrowth, I was trying to figure out if it was Ippon Seoi Nage, or Morote Seoi Nage. They are both shoulder throws. Morote Seoi Nage uses a "folded elbow" under the armpit, which makes the momentum of the opponent travel forward over the head, whereas, Ippon Seoi Nage puts the whole arm under the arm, causing the opponent to fall more to the side. (Overgrowth seems to use more of the animation of Ippon Seoi Nage, and the direction movement of Morote Seoi Nage, although it can be a pretty subtle difference.)

Ippon Seoi Nage:
(instruction)


A collection of real life performances: (Note that some of these are actually Morote Seoi Nage... Like 0:09 is a great example of Morote...) Whereas 0:46 is Ippon.


Morote Seoi Nage:



This started making me think we should have other throws in the game as well, so there are 4 major leg sweeps that might be cool. They are divided between inside the opponents leg (uchi) and outside the leg (soto).

So the "big" throws, (o), are a sweep with the heel of the foot (outside) and the knee. Like this:

O-Uchi Gari: (Big Inside Leg Sweep)


O-Soto Gari: (Big Outside Leg Sweep)


Then there are the "Small" (ko) versions of these throws. They are primarily hooks with the instep of the foot and toes, sometimes the bottom of the foot:

Ko-Uchi Gari: (Small Inside Leg Sweep)


Ko-Soto Gari: (Small Outside Leg Sweep)



One more fun Judo throw is Tomoe Nage, also known as the "suicide throw" which is when a person is advancing on you, and you roll back and kick them over your body with your foot. (It's incredibly hard to do, but feels so rewarding...)

Various longsword throws and grabs









These throws seem like they would be a natural fit for a game like this.... especially since they seem very familiar in a way to other techniques...



I really like disarms, they seem fun, but I can't seem to find the ones I was looking for.

You know, I'm kindof wondering how much help this is going to be for David and crew...

Aleol wrote:You know, I'm kindof wondering how much help this is going to be for David and crew...

I'm not sure, but I hope they at least look through these. Also, I hope at least some of the videos are useful. They have a stick coming out of a spear's haft in a 90-degree angle, and pollaxe tripping techniques should be perfect with that.


Longsword stuff!


Very fast longsword stuff. Nice!


EDIT: EVEN FASTER longsword stuff!




Some challenge duels, a bit slower in tempo but still very nice.